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Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

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  • Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

    Stephen Roach: Consumers need debt jubilee

    | 22 August 2011 19:00


    The over-indebted American consumer will be hard pressed to simultaneously reduce debt and maintain levels of consumption that support economic growth. On CNBC today, Stephen Roach of Morgan Stanley says, we need “ways to forgive the excesses of mortgage, installment and revolving credit, as what was done in the 1930s, that will help consumers get through the pain of deleveraging sooner rather than later.”

    There are four ways to reduce real debt burdens:
    1. by paying down debts via accumulated savings.
    2. by inflating away the value of money.
    3. by reneging in part or full on the promise to repay by defaulting
    4. by reneging in part on the promise to repay through debt forgiveness

    Listening to Roach explain the conundrum of high unemployment and poor wage gains, juxtaposed with high debt, it is clear he recognizes there is zero chance that consumers will be able to support the kind of economic growth via deleveraging and accumulating savings that avoids a deflationary outcome. The macro backdrop for consumers is deflationary.

    Central banks or fiscal agents might attempt to reduce the real burden of debt. Look at the UK where financial repression is the most advanced in the developed economies and the Bank of England has missed its inflation target time and again. The consumer there is in a world of pain. UK household finances are 'worse than during height of recession'.

    However, if we see another recession before the deleveraging is complete - as is my base case - deflation is going to be all around us, increasing the real burden of debt. In my view high levels of default or debt forgiveness are likely going forward in the US, Ireland, the UK, and Spain at a minimum.

    http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011...t-jubilee.html

  • #2
    Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness





    Ireland should examine a proposal by Morgan Kelly, an economics professor at University College Dublin, for debt forgiveness for some of the country’s homeowners, Willie Penrose, a junior minister, told the Sunday Times.


    The Economist will not be endorsing this candidacy:

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-16039536.html

    Monday, 22 August 2011

    Presidential hopeful Sean Gallagher has backed calls for a debt forgiveness scheme for struggling homeowners.

    The businessman said the issue was repeatedly raised by voters as he travelled across the country and said he hoped some form of relief can be considered.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

      "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
      -Matthew 6:12

      There, I took it right out of the Bible, so you can't call it socialist.
      Last edited by dcarrigg; August 23, 2011, 02:19 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

        Originally posted by don View Post
        Stephen Roach: Consumers need debt jubilee

        | 22 August 2011 19:00


        The over-indebted American consumer will be hard pressed to simultaneously reduce debt and maintain levels of consumption that support economic growth. On CNBC today, Stephen Roach of Morgan Stanley says, we need “ways to forgive the excesses of mortgage, installment and revolving credit, as what was done in the 1930s, that will help consumers get through the pain of deleveraging sooner rather than later.”

        There are four ways to reduce real debt burdens:

        1. by paying down debts via accumulated savings.
        2. by inflating away the value of money.
        3. by reneging in part or full on the promise to repay by defaulting
        4. by reneging in part on the promise to repay through debt forgiveness


        Listening to Roach explain the conundrum of high unemployment and poor wage gains, juxtaposed with high debt, it is clear he recognizes there is zero chance that consumers will be able to support the kind of economic growth via deleveraging and accumulating savings that avoids a deflationary outcome. The macro backdrop for consumers is deflationary.

        Central banks or fiscal agents might attempt to reduce the real burden of debt. Look at the UK where financial repression is the most advanced in the developed economies and the Bank of England has missed its inflation target time and again. The consumer there is in a world of pain. UK household finances are 'worse than during height of recession'.

        However, if we see another recession before the deleveraging is complete - as is my base case - deflation is going to be all around us, increasing the real burden of debt. In my view high levels of default or debt forgiveness are likely going forward in the US, Ireland, the UK, and Spain at a minimum.

        http://www.creditwritedowns.com/2011...t-jubilee.html
        The problem with debt forgiveness is that broadly, debt backs the fiat currencies of the world...so forgiving debt will destroy somebody else's asset...which will cause the system to go under.

        One can achieve the same systemic result by simply having global central banks bid for gold at at big # - $45,000 for Italy; $50,000 for US; $140,000/oz for Greece...once you turn the countries back into net neutral debt positions, then they can re-leverage themselves to aid struggling homeowners should they desire

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

          Once upon a time, there was a mechanism for the orderly retirement of bad debt known as bankruptcy. Then the bank lobby passed legislation known as BAPCPA made insolvent middle-income debtors into indentured servants.

          Just repealing BAPCPA, and allowing bankruptcy "cramdown" of first mortgages would solve a lot of this debt overhang problem without costing the government a cent...at least not a cent that hasn't already been spent, or that will have to be spent regardless.
          Last edited by A. Hamilton; August 23, 2011, 04:45 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

            Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
            "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
            -Matthew 6:12

            There, I took it right out of the Bible, so you can't call it socialist.
            There is an even more specific biblical reference. All debts to fellow hebrews were to be cancelled every 7 years.
            http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/15-1.htm

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

              Let me understand this: The deadbeats who have partied and bought new toys and new trucks, not to mention speculated in over-priced real estate are now going to have their debts forgiven at the expense of savers and producers? Who drempt-up this solution? Hudson? Bernanke? Greenspan? Princeton University?

              Did the deadbeats underwrite or forgive my rent during the Greenspan housing bubble when they profiteered in home ownership on credit? Maybe if I would have been given a fraction of the action in deadbeat profits from speculative real estate, I wouldn't feel so bitter now about being asked to forgive deadbeat debts.

              And the more deadbeats are bailed-out, as we witnessed in Europe with the PIIGS of late, the more debt they threaten to default upon. If the first bail-out would have been refused outright, Europe would not have entered into the mess that it is in now.
              Last edited by Starving Steve; August 23, 2011, 09:49 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                Let me understand this: The deadbeats who have partied and bought new toys and new trucks, not to mention speculated in over-priced real estate are now going to have their debts forgiven at the expense of savers and producers? Who drempt-up this solution? Hudson? Bernanke? Greenspan?
                I've gotten accustomed to thinking about this possible outcome, that those who got into trouble will get a do-over, while those of us who acted responsibly will get little or no reward for doing so.
                I hardly even get angry about it any more.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                  I am with you big daddy. How about selling credit rating? Perhaps I can sell somebody my ability to borrow. Kind of like carbon credits ;).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                    Hey, everybody knows Jesus was a commie! ;)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                      Originally posted by thriftyandboringinohio View Post
                      I've gotten accustomed to thinking about this possible outcome, that those who got into trouble will get a do-over, while those of us who acted responsibly will get little or no reward for doing so.
                      I hardly even get angry about it any more.
                      After the debt jubilee, will my money be able to very safely earn 5% yearly? If so, I can get over it. If not, I want one or more of the ones who were taking expensive vacations, driving new cars, who have 60 inch big screen TVs in every room of their house they couldn't afford while I was living frugally to come wash my car weekly and take care of the yard for about ten years...

                      Subtly

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                        Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                        I wouldn't feel so bitter now about being asked to forgive deadbeat debts.
                        What mortgage service, bank or credit card company do you own?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                          Thanks Jim and dcarrig.

                          As long as we are quoting the bible, which has over 2300 verses on handling money, let's not forget the primary principle regarding debt.

                          Romans 12:8 - The Message Version
                          Don't run up debts, except for the huge debt of love you owe each other.

                          Yes, I agree on forgiveness, however, there are consequences to those who accumulate debt and do not take responsibility for providing for their family. As EJ stated today we are near a world financial currency crisis.

                          Here is one of the top sites with a well respected author that ties what we are seeing in our world to the bible
                          http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                            Originally posted by babbittd View Post
                            What mortgage service, bank or credit card company do you own?
                            The National Credit Union of Starving Steve, of course!

                            Slogan: "Screw you deadbeats, I'm gettin' money!"

                            This is, of course, in addition to his illegal CO post-dated cheque-cashing scheme. But screw the law, it was a noble pursuit of cash outta deadbeats! We know who the hero is here.

                            Also, ecofrauds, and something about solar or something...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Stephen Roach Thinks the Unthinkable: Debt Forgiveness

                              Originally posted by jpetr48 View Post
                              Thanks Jim and dcarrig.

                              As long as we are quoting the bible, which has over 2300 verses on handling money, let's not forget the primary principle regarding debt.

                              Romans 12:8 - The Message Version
                              Don't run up debts, except for the huge debt of love you owe each other.

                              Yes, I agree on forgiveness, however, there are consequences to those who accumulate debt and do not take responsibility for providing for their family. As EJ stated today we are near a world financial currency crisis.

                              Here is one of the top sites with a well respected author that ties what we are seeing in our world to the bible
                              http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/
                              jpetr,

                              I'm on the King James here, but for me Romans 12:8 says,

                              "Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness."

                              I'm not super-sophisticated with taking meaning from these things, but I'm not following from where you get your message...I don't doubt that it's in there somewhere...maybe another translation?

                              Comment

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