This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

[c1ue]

h/t: www.exiledonline.com

I'd note it doesn't say work done by Americans...

http://www.sea-code.com/

SeaCode presents Hybrid-Sourcing^TM an innovative engineering service which creates high-end software engineering jobs in the U.S. while still providing lower overall costs for our clients. This approach combines the capabilities and convenience of our San Diego-based software engineering center with the proximity and reduced costs of our unique ship-based engineering facility. The result of this completely new business model is the creation of U.S. engineering jobs and lower blended costs for U.S. clients.

With Hybrid-Sourcing^TM SeaCode brings already offshored jobs back to the U.S. and ensures that 90 cents of every dollar from our clients stays in the U.S. instead of flowing to foreign locations.

[GRG55]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

h/t: www.exiledonline.com

I'd note it doesn't say work done by Americans...

...

My intuition is telling me that there is no possible way that a "ship-based engineering facility" is cheaper than having that same facility on land...even in the USA. There's some other angle to this story, and it's not about cheap foreign labour floating around on the continental shelf off the west coast.

[pianodoctor]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

Read the Forbes link at the top of the SeaCode page. I'm having a hard time grasping how this claim is backed up: "SeaCode brings already offshored jobs back to the U.S. and ensures that 90 cents of every dollar from our clients stays in the U.S. instead of flowing to foreign locations." Are they claiming the foreign workers from India and Russia are not going to send the money home? And how is hiring low-wage foreign engineers "bringing jobs home"? I also note it mentions pay but doesn't mention whether the workers are being charged for food and board.

Note the financial backer is a former U.S. Assistant Secretary of Defense, now an "angel investor".

[c1ue]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

My intuition is telling me that there is no possible way that a "ship-based engineering facility" is cheaper than having that same facility on land...even in the USA. There's some other angle to this story, and it's not about cheap foreign labour floating around on the continental shelf off the west coast.

It might if the H1B doesn't need to be involved.

Cruise ships, after all, employ non-H1B, non-US visa foreign nationals.

Remove the actual cruise and passengers, and substitute IT workers instead of bed linen changes, stewards, and cooks....voila!

[GRG55]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

It might if the H1B doesn't need to be involved.

Cruise ships, after all, employ non-H1B, non-US visa foreign nationals.

Remove the actual cruise and passengers, and substitute IT workers instead of bed linen changes, stewards, and cooks....voila!

My experience with "ships" is limited to offshore drilling rigs. Maritime laws are very clear about responsibilities and staffing requirements. Even when these rigs are in a harbour, but not tied up to the shore, they have to staffed as if at sea.

There is no possible way that the capital and operating costs of running a ship, staffing it legally, supplying it with energy [diesel] for propulsion, light plant and water distilling, provisioning it [those workers have to eat], insuring it, maintaining it, waste removal and so forth can be overcome with a "cheap labour" differential.

This story is incomplete, and I am convinced there is some other angle to this.

People [and companies] are often far too quick to accept and adopt the mainstream thinking around labour cost advantage. The Arab Gulf States have loads of [imported] cheap labour, zero corporate taxation, and a huge energy cost advantage over virtually anywhere in the world. It also has some of the world's largest aluminum smelters, and has been in recent years a massive buyer of airplanes from Boeing, Airbus and every executive jet manufacturer in the world from Cessna to Gulfstream. One would, on the face of it, expect the factors to have created a high concentration of aluminum aircraft components manufacturing. After all they should be able to make every single piece cheaper in that jurisidiction than the USA or Europe. But that hasn't happened...

In the mid-2000s a European specialty motor car company [ http://www.ruf-automobile.de/en/en-u...geschichte.php ] had a purpose built factory constructed in one of the Gulf kingdoms. At that time the Euro had risen against the US Dollar, and the Gulf represented a very large part of their market. Cheaper labour than Germany, proximity to market, a more favourable exchange rate, no taxes all suggested a winning decision. To my knowledge they never built a single car in that facility...

[brent217]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

My experience with "ships" is limited to offshore drilling rigs. Maritime laws are very clear about responsibilities and staffing requirements. Even when these rigs are in a harbour, but not tied up to the shore, they have to staffed as if at sea.

There is no possible way that the capital and operating costs of running a ship, staffing it legally, supplying it with energy [diesel] for propulsion, light plant and water distilling, provisioning it [those workers have to eat], insuring it, maintaining it, waste removal and so forth can be overcome with a "cheap labour" differential.

This story is incomplete, and I am convinced there is some other angle to this.

People [and companies] are often far too quick to accept and adopt the mainstream thinking around labour cost advantage. The Arab Gulf States have loads of [imported] cheap labour, zero corporate taxation, and a huge energy cost advantage over virtually anywhere in the world. It also has some of the world's largest aluminum smelters, and has been in recent years a massive buyer of airplanes from Boeing, Airbus and every executive jet manufacturer in the world from Cessna to Gulfstream. One would, on the face of it, expect the factors to have created a high concentration of aluminum aircraft components manufacturing. After all they should be able to make every single piece cheaper in that jurisidiction than the USA or Europe. But that hasn't happened...

In the mid-2000s a European specialty motor car company [ http://www.ruf-automobile.de/en/en-u...geschichte.php ] had a purpose built factory constructed in one of the Gulf kingdoms. At that time the Euro had risen against the US Dollar, and the Gulf represented a very large part of their market. Cheaper labour than Germany, proximity to market, a more favourable exchange rate, no taxes all suggested a winning decision. To my knowledge they never built a single car in that facility...

You are assuming here that the ship is flagged American. If the ship flys a flag of convenience, Liberian or Panamanian being the most common, then US laws do not apply. The ship can then feed the workers nothing but rice, insurance and maintenance are not needed, and they can just dump waste into the ocean. Some fuel will still be needed to keep the computers running and station keeping, but the fuel cost might be lower than yearly land and corporate taxes, which are sharply on the rise. If the workers themselves are semi captive with long low paying contracts and all outgoing transmissions monitored, the total cost could well be cheaper than hiring American workers in the US. Very similar to programming sweatshops already in India and China but with the added benefit of seasickness

[c1ue]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

My experience with "ships" is limited to offshore drilling rigs. Maritime laws are very clear about responsibilities and staffing requirements. Even when these rigs are in a harbour, but not tied up to the shore, they have to staffed as if at sea.

I don't dispute your experience with offshore drilling rigs.

However, you haven't responded to the fact that what I noted about cruise ships is also 100% true. The last time I was on a cruise ship - which was 16 months ago - the person who was responsible for cleaning the cabins told me her monthly wages were $450/month, in return for having 14 hour days. The wait staff got $350, but also got tips (not as much as you think since meal costs aboard only cost a maximum of $15). The bartender got $600, but they saw real tips of double or sometimes triple that.

My point is pretty simple: none of them had US visas despite the cruises being based out of US ports. None of them were paid according to minimum wage, presumably are also not covered by other US labor requirements. etc etc.

As for the story - that is the company's actual web site. This isn't some news item.

[jiimbergin]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

I don't dispute your experience with offshore drilling rigs.

However, you haven't responded to the fact that what I noted about cruise ships is also 100% true. The last time I was on a cruise ship - which was 16 months ago - the person who was responsible for cleaning the cabins told me her monthly wages were $450/month, in return for having 14 hour days. The wait staff got $350, but also got tips (not as much as you think since meal costs aboard only cost a maximum of $15). The bartender got $600, but they saw real tips of double or sometimes triple that.

My point is pretty simple: none of them had US visas despite the cruises being based out of US ports. None of them were paid according to minimum wage, presumably are also not covered by other US labor requirements. etc etc.

As for the story - that is the company's actual web site. This isn't some news item.

The cabin stewards also get tips. On most, if not all, cruises the tip is automatically added to your bill, unless you stop it from happening. You will notice that all cruises leaving from a US port (except for 2 NCL ships in Hawaii) always stop at at least one non US port. If it doesn't then the ship must follow US laws. For example I am on a cruise this January from Port Canaveral. It stops in San Juan and St. Thomas, 2 US ports, but also stops in Nassau, a non US port. All ships leaving San Diego or Seattle that go to Hawaii also stop in one port in Mexico or one port in Canada for the same reason. Also ships leaving Seattle for Alaska always stop once in Canada, usually Vancouver. The only real exception is the 2 NCL ships in Hawaii that only stop in US ports. They follow US laws.

[seanm123]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

A similar story appeared perhaps 12 years ago during dot com bubble. Someone wanted a way around the H-1B laws and was going to use
a cruise ship full of programmers. I would think this model is not only outdated with the reality in programming today of high speed internet links
and collaboration on projects already done worldwide. For example IBM employs more people worldwide now than they do in the USA. Microsoft employs about 1500 on
their campus in India where it was perhaps 20 a decade ago. This seems like a recycled story with a twist, someones idea of making it big that did not come to fruition a decade ago and is now recycling it when it should have been tossed in the bin.

[GRG55]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

You are assuming here that the ship is flagged American. If the ship flys a flag of convenience, Liberian or Panamanian being the most common, then US laws do not apply. The ship can then feed the workers nothing but rice, insurance and maintenance are not needed, and they can just dump waste into the ocean. Some fuel will still be needed to keep the computers running and station keeping, but the fuel cost might be lower than yearly land and corporate taxes, which are sharply on the rise. If the workers themselves are semi captive with long low paying contracts and all outgoing transmissions monitored, the total cost could well be cheaper than hiring American workers in the US. Very similar to programming sweatshops already in India and China but with the added benefit of seasickness

Your statements above regarding maritime law are not correct.

[GRG55]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

I don't dispute your experience with offshore drilling rigs.

However, you haven't responded to the fact that what I noted about cruise ships is also 100% true...

This isn't a cruise ship, so why you would expect me to respond as if it was is beyond me...

[c1ue]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

The cabin stewards also get tips. On most, if not all, cruises the tip is automatically added to your bill, unless you stop it from happening.

The tip is deducted from your credit card, but it was not clear that this 'tip' is actual pay over and above the salaries of the cabin stewards. I didn't ask that specific question.

This isn't a cruise ship, so why you would expect me to respond as if it was is beyond me...

It looks like a cruise ship. It is, in physicality, a cruise ship. It moves around - not anchored to an oil well or a harbor.

So it is unclear why you are being snide.

You still haven't responded to the fact that there is in actuality an example where non-work permit foreigners can in fact work in US waters in actual widespread circumstance.

[jiimbergin]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

The tip is deducted from your credit card, but it was not clear that this 'tip' is actual pay over and above the salaries of the cabin stewards. I didn't ask that specific question..

It is and you can decide not to pay it in most cases. For Royal Caribbean beginning this year if you want a specified time and table for dinner you must prepay your gratuities. We cruise a lot in case you did not figure that out.

.[/QUOTE]

[c1ue]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

It is and you can decide not to pay it in most cases. For Royal Caribbean beginning this year if you want a specified time and table for dinner you must prepay your gratuities. We cruise a lot in case you did not figure that out.

According to this - the automatic gratuity is partially given to the cabin stewards, and the remainder given to others:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=802083

Again, I haven't asked so don't know.

[jiimbergin]

Re: This is just goofy: offshoring literally on a cruise ship

According to this - the automatic gratuity is partially given to the cabin stewards, and the remainder given to others:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=802083

Again, I haven't asked so don't know.

that is correct. the $10-$12 per day per person gratuity is split among the cabin stewards, the wait staff and some toward others. The cabin steward usually gets about $3.50 to $4.00 per day per person, the assistant steward gets $2 to $2.50 per day per person. you also can give them more which we always do.