RE: It Will Only Get Worse

[BK]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

C1ue - That quote didn't come from me.

Not all Librarians or Libraries are equal. For example, in Boston http://www.bpl.org/research/kbb/kbbhome.htm
Is a phenomenal Library with very helpful and professional librarians.

Librarians are an important resource and will continue to be. But, there are lots of posers whom are called Librarians and are merely politically connected Hacks that secure a job checking in/out books.

The management of information and having smart individuals who can help people navigate Information resources will be an important job for a long while. But, that doesn't mean while need as many of the Book checkers as we have today.

[mesyn191]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse - Crossing Guard Data - Linwood-NJ $30-$49 per hour

Wages for Part-time Crossing Guards for Linwood - Where the range goes from $30 - $49 per diem - in my area guards show up for 1/2 hour in the Morning 1/2 hour in the afternoon.

So $30-49/day? Other crossing guards in the same state seem to get 10hr weeks so its probably not much more than that. For a job that is apparently pretty dangerous due to NJ's shitty shitty drivers? It mentions Police Dispatchers getting 40 hr work weeks but not the crossing guards expected hours exactly. The generic statement that seems to apply to everyone is just plain common sense.

Section 10.1A Hours of Work
This article shall be to calculate overtime and shall not be
a guarantee of work or hours for any day or week.
The work week shall begin at 12:00 A.M. Sunday (one minute
after 11:59 P.M. Saturday) and shall end at 12:00 A.M. the
following Sunday. The normal work week shall consist of five (5)
work days with two (2) consecutive days off.
The work day shall commence from the employee's scheduled
start time and shall include an unpaid lunch break according to the
Employer's current practice

Oh wait they get 4 paid hours on a vacation day (11 of those a year) assuming they work the day before and after it, and a $550/yr uniform expense. And they get 25 days PTO after 25 yr on the job, oooh wow union abuse is really raking it in!! They can get a max payment of $200 (~$.32/mi) for driving distance to work. And they get 2 paid hours for a meeting for some yearly meeting in Aug. Bear in mind a crossing guard works during the school year only normally too... I'm sure there a couple of other things I missed but I somehow doubt it adds up to much. Most of this stuff is common sense expenses that every one should get compensated for.

You guys flipping out over this stuff are making mountains out of molehills. They could fire all these people and replace them with kids, it wouldn't save much money at all, and when a kid gets hit by a car the parents would flip out and demand the crossing guards back again, as they should.

[c1ue]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

C1ue - That quote didn't come from me.

Sorry my mistake. Fixed.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

"Eating" the banksters is a good start but not enough. The rich have gobbled up too large a chunk of wealth of the country not to get nibbled on too, which is why I keep harping on wealth distribution since it gives a clearer picture. No need to cry rivers for them, they'll still have more cash than they actually know what to do with even if half, over half really, of it got taken away.

Sounds like what thieves say to justify their crimes. "They can afford it." or "They have insurance."

If someone earned their money through legal, arms-length transactions with other parties who voluntarily made the deal, then it's their money, period. It's not your money to loot because you're jealous and you think they have "too much".

[Mn_Mark]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

Unless something radically changes the policy is to bleed the productive economy for the ill-gotten gains of the big bankers running this country. This is why after trillions of dollars funneled to the banking sector little has been done in terms of boosting incomes or home prices.

I've no doubt that the bankers and the other well-connected folks were the major beneficiaries of the bailouts. They had their millions and billions saved.

But how come I never hear people talk about what would have happened to the average guy if the government had let the banks and AIG and GM and all the rest of them fail, like they let Lehman fail?

If the government really did not do bailouts, then you could have said goodbye to your pension funds. To your 401ks. To your money market funds - remember the run on them that began in Sept '08 and which stopped when the Fed said they'd guarantee money markets? You could have said goodbye to your savings accounts and checking accounts. Massive numbers of people would have lost their life's savings.

So yes, they bailed out the bankers, but they bailed out YOU too. And if they hadn't, the people would have made sure they had their heads handed to them.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

I think done properly that Keynisian economics can work yes. I don't think the people running the show now for the last 2 decades at least have been doing proper Keynisian economics and that has baked a lot problems into the proverbial cake. Some pain is unavoidable, but we could be doing things a hell of a lot better.

This reminds me of the people you will still occasionally hear who say that communism is the best economic system, but that true communism just hasn't been tried yet.

They ignore a basic truth: communism conflicts with human nature. As does Keynesian economics.

Yes, if the government actually raised taxes and decreased spending during boom times and used the surplus to pay down the debt incurred during the bad times, that might be good. BUT THEY DON'T. Because human nature for politicians is to get re-elected. And to get re-elected you have to give the people what they want, whether it is wise or not. And what the people want is low taxes and high spending.

[nathanhulick]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

Sounds like what thieves say to justify their crimes. "They can afford it." or "They have insurance."

If someone earned their money through legal, arms-length transactions with other parties who voluntarily made the deal, then it's their money, period. It's not your money to loot because you're jealous and you think they have "too much".

"Written laws are like spider's webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and the poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful. " - Anacharsis

[dcarrigg]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse - Crossing Guard Data - Linwood-NJ $30-$49 per hour

I want to respond to this respectfully while at the same time showing how misinformation propagates.

I want to be cordial here - and I don't want this to sound condescending. Since I can't use tone of voice, I must ask the reader to trust this introduction.

BK - I will quote you here - the bold-face is my edit - all of the words are yours:

Mesyn191,
Lets get back to some facts I reported earlier - why does it make sense to pay crossing guards $50 and health benefits - how does that help my local community?

There are no crossing guards making $50 per hour. There never were. There may be some in some places with health insurance - but there are certainly none making $50/hour with health insurance.

I am not here to get involved in debate over the merits (or lack thereof) of public sector unionization. I will leave that to you and Mesyn.

We must be careful of these statements. You could make the argument that it does not make sense to employ any crossing guards since it's a useless profession, and we could debate the merits of that.

But by stating an outrageous pay figure that is untrue you simply propagate misinformation and get people angry. Their anger stems from the lie.

If you reported the facts that you have reported below - which are much harder to argue - you would have said that some crossing guards in Lynwood NJ make somewhere between $25 and $42 per day, and that you had seen one of them work for only one hour per day.

But no. You instead said that they make $30-$49 per day. If you read the contract you to which you linked, that's the pay for the crossing guard captain, who probably has to keep track of the other ones, sick calls, training, etc. It's not the pay for the average crossing guard.

And so, when you say they only work an hour per day, how am I to believe you?

When I read an article about Linwood, NJ laying off two crossing guards leading to savings of $7,000 per year, that tells me that the two (of 19 total) that they laid off were making $25 per day for 140 days per year.

Now let me state a fact:

Two recent crossing guards in Lynwood, NJ cost the city $3,500 per year each.

You can see how it is much harder to get angry with the truth.





__________________________________________________ ___________________

Wages for Part-time Crossing Guards for Linwood - Where the range goes from $30 - $49 per diem - in my area guards show up for 1/2 hour in the Morning 1/2 hour in the afternoon.
- New Jersey - can be found here:
http://www.linwoodcity.org/pdf/Salar...nce01-2011.pdf

Just search for "Crossing Guard"

In Chicago - find details here: http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.ed...tion%20wage%22
Crossing guards in Chicage - make $10-$13 per hour plus Holiday pay, they accumulate Vacation time, they get a Uniform allowance, on and on and on.....
Its not the hourly Dollars that gets expensive its all the EXTRAs

Best Regards.

And so we go from $30-$50 per hour to $25-$42 per diem.

(remembering that the $30-$49 figure was for the captain of guards and not the guards as a whole).

I'm not in NJ, but I do have a crossing guard across the street from my house on schooldays. He's there about 3 hours per day (7:30am-9:00am and 2:00pm-3:30pm). That being said (I'm not home a lot while he's out there), I've just been informed that he stays varying lengths of time depending on whether there are people around to chat with or not. So it goes...

My guess (not a fact) would be that some work more hours per diem than others - or some locations have more hours to work than others - and the pay is on that scale of $25-$42 per day accordingly. Probably the longest day is about 3 hours I figure.

Even at $42/day for a 180 day/year it's a whole $7,560 salary per school year. But as the article I quoted above noted - at least for the two they laid off, the salaries were $3,500 per year. That's a lot harder to get angry about.

$10-$13 per hour sounds about right for Chicago. Chicago crossing guards are unique, however, insofar as they have been writing parking tickets during the summer. They therefore work year-round (4-hour shifts during summer according to the article). That being said, they do get $550 per year for a uniform allowance and vacation time and time and a half on holidays (if authorized by management). I do wonder (not a fact) if the vacation time accumulates to be taken mandatorily on school vacations (this was the case for me when I had worked at a school). Even if it does, you would be right, they would get paid vacation.

Now, if you asked the question, "Why should crossing guards get paid vacations?" we would debate that.

If you were to ask the question "Why should crossing guards get paid more than minimum wage?" we could debate that.

But, please, do not misrepresent reality. It hurts our ability to make informed decisions. Decisions made based on "facts" that are untrue will always be poor. Spreading "facts" that are untrue hurts ones credibility. It is a habit that is healthy for no one. I hope to get past it and continue on with useful, thoughtful, and informed discussion.

Thank you.

[BK]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse - Crossing Guard Data - Linwood-NJ $30-$49 per hour

The figure got your attention. What happens in Jersey - is many time the Crossing guard is an exisiting town employee and this adds to a lot of cost to Pension expenses. So, a local man was just written about in the paper because of his 30 years of service as a Crossing Guard , and btw he would head off to his Public Works Job after crossing the children. Wait until we start having massive short falls in Pension and we aren't able to pay the pension that were earned and well deserved. Yes - my figures appear to be exaggerated - but, you must remember the days of children being the crossing guards.

Crossing Guard - was merely attempt to make people understand the massive number of jobs that have been Unionized and a reliant on the State Pension Funds. You are a wise ituliper clearly you understand it will collapse.

Meanwhile, Governor Christies Hot Air appears to be having minimal effect on restraining Property Tax increases. My father-in-law just had his Property Taxes raised by 6% and he is paying twice what he paid 10 years ago. School budget continue to balloon in Jersey - there is no way to stop the beast.

I suspect dcarrig is going to tell me that this is a positive and a good for society.

I would suspect dcarrig that you are lucky enough to be a public union member or derive your living from State/Local/ of Federal Budget Money??? Just a guess?

[dcarrigg]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse - Crossing Guard Data - Linwood-NJ $30-$49 per hour

The figure got your attention. What happens in Jersey - is many time the Crossing guard is an exisiting town employee and this adds to a lot of cost to Pension expenses. So, a local man was just written about in the paper because of his 30 years of service as a Crossing Guard , and btw he would head off to his Public Works Job after crossing the children. Wait until we start having massive short falls in Pension and we aren't able to pay the pension that were earned and well deserved. Yes - my figures appear to be exaggerated - but, you must remember the days of children being the crossing guards.

Crossing Guard - was merely attempt to make people understand the massive number of jobs that have been Unionized and a reliant on the State Pension Funds. You are a wise ituliper clearly you understand it will collapse.

Meanwhile, Governor Christies Hot Air appears to be having minimal effect on restraining Property Tax increases. My father-in-law just had his Property Taxes raised by 6% and he is paying twice what he paid 10 years ago. School budget continue to balloon in Jersey - there is no way to stop the beast.

I suspect dcarrig is going to tell me that this is a positive and a good for society.

I would suspect dcarrig that you are lucky enough to be a public union member or derive your living from State/Local/ of Federal Budget Money??? Just a guess?

Argumentum ad hominem; in this case, it's a true logical fallacy. You mean to distract from the fact that you did exaggerate figures by insinuating that I am a card-carrying member of a public-sector union. As I stated in my earlier post, exaggerating figures is different than stating that cities and towns can no longer afford crossing guards and should not have any.

I stated earlier that I will leave the arguments as to the relative merits of public sector unions to you and Mesyn, and I will do so. I simply wished to point out a lie that made an argument murky. I would hope that anyone who has followed my posts would know by now that I would do it on the other side of the argument just as quickly.

P.S. For the record, I'm not in any union. I don't receive any pension, nor do I receive unemployment, food stamps, or any other kind of government assistance.

[BK]

Re: Yes - $30 per hour Crossing Guards Do exist in Jersey

$30 per hour School Crossing Guard - Chatham Township - New Jersey on page 2 -http://www.chathamtownship.org/ordinances/2011/Ordinance%202011-03%20Salary%20Ordinance.pdf

Princeton School District - $30/ per hour - School Crossing Guard- only in Jersey - http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

A simple apology would be fine .........Cities/Towns/School Districts work hard to hide the out of control spending......but, you can find it if you are resourceful.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Yes - $30 per hour Crossing Guards Do exist in Jersey

$30 per hour School Crossing Guard - Chatham Township - New Jersey on page 2 -http://www.chathamtownship.org/ordinances/2011/Ordinance%202011-03%20Salary%20Ordinance.pdf

That's not $50/hr plus health benefits. It's a range of $7,50/hr to $30/hr. But $30/hour is part of the range. The last person hired there was hired at $19 and change per hour. That's a pretty high rate that perhaps the folks in the Township should look into.

Princeton School District - $30/ per hour - School Crossing Guard- only in Jersey - http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

Of the 2 people making $30/hr here, some things are curious. One seems to be the high school varsity basketball coach. And the other appears to be an elementary school teacher.

Perhaps there is some impropriety going on here with the school board appointing school employees to $30/hr crossing guard jobs. Hell, Bell, CA was a cesspool to which this pales by comparison. I never said that there aren't dirty towns. I just said that there are not $50/hr crossing guards getting health insurance, which you said was a fact. I still don't see that fact materializing.

A simple apology would be fine .........Cities/Towns/School Districts work hard to hide the out of control spending......but, you can find it if you are resourceful.

I apologize that this has gotten adversarial, but I'm not sorry for calling a lie - or an exaggeration - out for what it was.

The crooked towns do work hard to cover up malfeasance. I'm sure there are some of them out there (maybe Princeton's one?) But I'm not wrong here. You said that a specific wage and benefit package were fact. You have yet to back it up. You have found some more interesting cases, no doubt, but you presented $50/hr plus health insurance as a matter of fact. It was not so.

[BK]

Re: Yes - $30 per hour Crossing Guards Do exist in Jersey

1. If you add the costs of future Pension obligations - health care, accrued vacation, holiday time then many towns in New Jersey pay $25 -$40 for their $19-$30 per hour Crossing Guards.

2. Malfeasance is the norm - why do you think some school Districts in New Jersey pay Supers $280,000 per year.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/201...ted_as_ne.html

People under estimate the amount of Financial malfeasance that its happening in most towns in America. Bankrupt Pension Funds will sort some of this out.

[goodrich4bk]

Re: It Will Only Get Worse

Boy, you've bought the banker's explanation hook, line and sinker.

Every time I hear the "collapse" theory I have to wonder how people can be so ignorant when good information is so readily available on the internet.

First, MM funds were guaranteed, as were all FDIC deposits. The average American does not have deposits that are greater than the FDIC insurance. Those who do have responsibility for putting their savings in safe banks --- there were and are many sources for determining the safety of one's banks. Had the rich --- those with deposits greater than FDIC insurance --- lost all of their savings I seriously doubt that they would have gone quietly into the night. Instead, they would have sued every insider they could find for fraud, liquidated their mansions and corporate jets and set an example for corporate leaders for generations to come. THAT is what happened in the 1930s and lead to at least a couple of decades of prudent management and modest compensation in American board rooms.

Second, bank bondholders would have taken the first and perhaps only losses. Again, if you had your life savings in bank bonds rated AA and lost it all I think you would have been very motivated to see real reform under the Obama administration. Instead, many of the Tea Party activists --- having had their savings accounts saved by the government they despise --- are turning on the poor, the aged and the sick to "balance the budget" the TARP safety net broke.

Third, the globalization genie was let out of the bottle when conservatives and liberals alike followed the FIRE elite's siren song of "financial innovation", "free trade" and "great moderation" illusions. Real incomes are declining and will continue to decline so long as wage abritrage is more profitable than real innovation. As long as real income is falling, the only rational policy response is to lower the American worker's "overhead" by lowering the cost of housing through default and debt liquidation. That is precisely what would have happened if your parade of horribles would have been allowed to march.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Yes - $30 per hour Crossing Guards Do exist in Jersey

Shoot. The crossing guard in my area of NJ - is worth every penny she makes. She is obviously a retiree - and probably does this for extra spending money. On the occaisions she is out sick or such, and either a substitute fills in or worse, a police officer, traffic is backed up 1/2 a mile (10 minutes at a crawl) in all directions!

Being a crossing guard is a sh!tty job. I agree with whoever commented above about the dangerous NJ drivers - on my route to work I pass by another area and have see one near miss for the guard.....

Now there is plenty of abuse in the NJ pension system....I'd rather see a more suitable target being picked on (the tax assessor in something like 7+ towns in sommerset county, ie, working 7 jobs "full time" and making more than $250K comes to mind)