Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

[lektrode]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

guess this is the result when labor and/or material is 'too cheap to meter' ?
and/or when environmental concerns/regulations are non-existent....
'must be nice' eh?

In the photo below, excavators have dug a large pit and others are ripping apart the train carriage to bury inside the pit. And all this happening while rescue operations are still in progress.

[Chomsky]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

I'm amazed at how many people including on this thread don't get the first thing about capitalism.

Profits first is the WAY that safe trains are built, not an impediment to safe trains.

There is not enough of a real private property capitalist system, and that is what leads to cutting corners. If a true private company builds trains, and the trains collide, that company is in huge trouble with its shareholders and customers and that concern, including the need to insure against it, creates very safe infrastructure.

What a load of crap. Why did it take decades for US automobiles to have safety belts?

[grapejelly]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

What a load of crap. Why did it take decades for US automobiles to have safety belts?

buyers didn't care. They were offered as an option but people didn't want them.

[flintlock]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

buyers didn't care. They were offered as an option but people didn't want them.

Of course you are correct. (And I think Itulip as a whole would be better served if members didn't start off replies with " What a load of crap"!)

The penalties for NOT providing a safe product are ultimately what bring about real safety. These penalties can be both economic and legal. My guess is if whoever was responsible for the train's safety knew they'd face serious legal and economic repercussions, they'd do a better job. In a state like China, I'm not sure the environment exists now where that will happen. I really can't say. In the USA, someone usually gets their butts sued off when this happens. That alone is a deterrent. And if given alternatives,( not sure this applies to trains) people will usually choose the vehicle that won't kill them.

[GRG55]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

The Chinese economy will continue to adapt fast as long as the decision making process is based on technology exploitation. If it is allowed to completely switch over to a economic decision making process aka profits first it will be game over and time to move on...

LOL. China's greatest problem today is that it is in the midst of what is almost certain to become the greatest peacetime misallocation of capital in human history. What you are advocating above contributes to that problem.

I am amazed at how many otherwise sensible people allow their vision to be impaired by the reflections from those shiny fast trains and the glass curtain walls on China's new towers...

[GRG55]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

...Why did it take decades for US automobiles to have safety belts?

A deeply ingrained historical and cultural predisposition towards believing such things are an encroachment on personal "freedom"?

Could be this same thing is preventing the country from truly reforming its long broken health care system? Or developing any coherent energy policy?

[touchring]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

I am amazed at how many otherwise sensible people allow their vision to be impaired by the reflections from those shiny fast trains and the glass curtain walls on China's new towers...

a.k.a Dubai x 1000

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

First of all, as I see it, the lightening strike turned off the power, so all the track side warning systems failed...

Railway signaling system are "fail-safe". That industry invented the phrase. It means that when something fails, the component and the system goes to a known safe state- train stops; crossing gates go down; track switch to the main line position... Loss of power is at the top of the list of failure modes that should always be accommodated. Until the 1990s, the logic was implemented with "vital relays". Vital, because a train wreck could occur if they went wrong, they are vitally important to safety.

A vital relay was about the size of a college dictionary and cost about $700. The case was thick solid glass, with a hermetically-sealed base. The contacts moved on jeweled bearings like a swiss watch, they couldn't stick. The contacts had one side silver, the other side carbon, so it was impossible for them to weld together with an over-powered signal. The logic designer was allowed to presume gravity worked.

In the event of power failure, the contacts would fall to the down position, and the logic was designed so a safe state resulted. A simple track siding might require dozens of these expensive relays for the logic. These relays are still in service by the thousands, some of them nearly a hundred years old. One of the few failure modes to the unsafe state is first the relay base seal leaks, and then the cabinet is flood with high water, and then the case fills with water, and then the water freezes into ice so the relay fails to the picked-up unsafe position. Pretty rare.

The modern digital equivalents are similarly well-considered. The main microprocessor might have two pins toggling 1-to-zero, creating a square wave at the clock speed. The square wave goes through a narrow band-pass filter, gets rectified, and holds up a little relay carrying the main power into the processor. Should the clock speed drift off-spec, the notch filter blocks the square wave, the relay falls, and the processor loses power, essentially pulling out its own power plug if the clock speed drifts. The operating code might have ten dummy lines of code for every functional line, each dummy line saying "jump to me". Should the computer process unexpectedly enter the instructions at a random line, the code will stick right there and stop.

A controller module might have two such processor units, each using a different brand and model of processor chip, each running code written by two independent programming teams. The two different processors feed output signals which should be the same to a hardware comparator that will shut down to the known safe state if the output of the two processing units disagree.

Fail safe, really and for sure. Loss of power is no excuse.

[GRG55]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

a.k.a Dubai x 1000

In Dubai they talked about a lot of crazy schemes, and built a few. And an amazing amount of money was misallocated and wasted.

In China they just go ahead and build everything. Hence the x 1000 money multiplier ;-)

[GRG55]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

Many thanks for this interesting explanation.

As I was reading this part...

A vital relay was about the size of a college dictionary and cost about $700. The case was thick solid glass, with a hermetically-sealed base. The contacts moved on jeweled bearings like a swiss watch, they couldn't stick. The contacts had one side silver, the other side carbon, so it was impossible for them to weld together with an over-powered signal...

...I had no trouble imagining the Chinese making exact replicas of these devices, perfectly indistinguishable from the real thing on the outside, but...

[touchring]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

Many thanks for this interesting explanation.

As I was reading this part...



...I had no trouble imagining the Chinese making exact replicas of these devices, perfectly indistinguishable from the real thing on the outside, but...

And also indistinguishable inside, when brand new, but the thing starts to disintegrate after a couple years. Just like China made consumer electronics, stops working after 3 or 4 years. The trouble with Chinese bullet trains is only beginning....

They will have to rip out existing infrastructure and replace them with German or Japanese made ones, like the Yankees did with dry walls.

This is the reason why Chinese only buy new apartments, because they start to rot if you stay in them. After 10 years, they look like centuries old buildings in Europe, and you can demolish them, like they do in Singapore.

[lektrode]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

All this reminded me of this old iTulip thread...
.... devoted to a Chinese commercial airplane project, and I recall making a comment along the lines that "If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going". Nothing has happened to change my mind so far :-)

+1
theres nuthin like a crj200 to remind one of this, whilst working 'out there on diff islands' to appreciate the mobile lifestyle's 'little' features...

vs a b717, by comparison, for instance (any chance i can get)

[lektrode]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

Many thanks for this interesting explanation.

As I was reading this part...

Originally Posted by thriftyandboringinohio A vital relay was about the size of a college dictionary and cost about $700. The case was thick solid glass, with a hermetically-sealed base. The contacts moved on jeweled bearings like a swiss watch, they couldn't stick. The contacts had one side silver, the other side carbon, so it was impossible for them to weld together with an over-powered signal... "



...I had no trouble imagining the Chinese making exact replicas of these devices, perfectly indistinguishable from the real thing on the outside, but...

this railroad/trains stuff is fun, isnt it?
(writes an HO scale kinda guy)

[GRG55]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

this railroad/trains stuff is fun, isnt it?
(writes an HO scale kinda guy)

As long as your HO is made by Lionel, and not the Golden Happiness Lucky Dragon toy company...

[jk]

Re: Train wreck is no surprise to me, trains wreck all the time, but what happens next is really nuts.

from caixin


Faster, further and failing – how the effects of endemic corruption are beginning to surface in wider segments of public services

By Li Yong

Today, I posted a microblog entry: “At first, the middle class did not bother to worry about Corruption Terrorism. They did not have to work in an underground mine or on an assembly line, so they did not have to worry about mine collapses or industrial malfunctions. But Corruption Terrorism has evolved beyond its early stages, and now it affects nearly everyone. Everyone who takes a train or a subway, everyone who drives a car on a bridge, lives in a house, goes to buy food in a supermarket – these all have risks now, they all involve hazarding one’s safety. In this next stage of Corruption Terrorism, not even the privileged can escape from danger.” Corruption Terrorism is a term I first saw used on Weibo by microblogger Huashan2009.

This post has been forwarded and reposted more than any other I have ever written. I think the public’s reaction to the post stems not only from the high-speed rail crash’s heavy casualties, but also from the panic and anxiety induced by such a man-made disaster. A decade ago, most news of disasters seemed to be from mine collapses, workshop explosions, or accidents in illegal coal mines; these things all seemed very distant from cities and white-collar lifestyles, all of which still felt safe. But in recent years, it seems that the disasters are moving in next door, creeping ever closer to the middle-class, the white-collar world. We often hear of disasters in the media – a building collapses or is set alight, a car falls into a sinkhole, a bridge collapses carrying an overloaded truck, a packed subway escalator malfunctions, another food safety issue is reported. The list goes on.

etc
http://blog.english.caing.com/article/365/