Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

[Polish_Silver]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

I wrote that in reference to Turkey. Well there you have it. Muslim democracy led to ......the end of democracy. The military has attempted a coup to protect democracy (their words not mine!).

I read once in the economist that turkey has a history of such coup's, and I think they are even proscribed in the constitution. Democracy has a lot of problems--as this shows.

[llanlad2]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

I read once in the economist that turkey has a history of such coup's, and I think they are even proscribed in the constitution. Democracy has a lot of problems--as this shows.

Proscribed or prescribed? Either way now that the coup has failed I believe that the Morsi map that JK outlined above will be more ruthlessly followed. I imagine the failure of the coup will prove to be a very pyrrhic victory for democracy in the long term in Turkey.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

The first thing I noticed when the Turkish "coup" was broadcast was the time.

UK/US markets were closed for the weekend.

The second thing I noticed was a complete lack of Turkish senior military chain of command broadcasting on TV/radio.

The third thing was the immediate US Presidential support for Erdogan.

I strongly suspect this has 1 of 2 explanations:

1) A genuine "middle military management" coup(senior leadership in the Trukish military had been significantly purged a decade ago in the Sledgehammer case, effectively emasculating the Turkish military's "political reboot" capability.

2) A "Reichstag fire" conducted to further Erdogan's boa constrictor like grip on the country's centres of gravity and power.

-----

Turkey is a very dangerous anomoly.

We have been taught that increasing wealth correlates with secularity.

Turkey does not possess the massively lopsided disparity in wealth nor the incredibly rapid westernisation that sparked the Iranian Revolution.

Turkey has a massive broad and deep industrialised economy with a well educated workforce.......and it seems to be going against the grain of assumptions.

[lakedaemonian]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

It sounds like 2745 Turkish judges and government officials have been sacked less than 24 hours after the start of the "coup".

That's pretty quick.

A cynic "might" think that the list had been prepared some time in advance, but how could that be possible?

[wayiwalk]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

Especially notable is the number of prosecutors and high ranking judges who are also being named as conspirators. Very suspicious.

I was thinking the same thoughts noted above earlier today of the devolution of democracy. I'd say if this country didn't have such a well designed system of checks and balances, we'd have reached the similar point years ago.

[vt]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

Erdogan supports the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi. Egypt vetoed the UN resolution supporting the Turkish government.

It'll be very bad if Erdogan takes Turkey down the path Egypt was going with Morsi. Democracy won't last much longer.

[touchring]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

Erdogan supports the Muslim Brotherhood and Morsi. Egypt vetoed the UN resolution supporting the Turkish government.

It'll be very bad if Erdogan takes Turkey down the path Egypt was going with Morsi. Democracy won't last much longer.

Erdogan is a lunatic, another Saddam Hussein. The EU is lucky not to have admitted Turkey. The combination of ISIS, dictatorship and lunatic leadership is a recipe for anarchy, i.e. Syria.

[santafe2]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

Strategy of tension at work as in the 1980 coup. I suspected this when all the bombings started coming in fast and furious behind the civil unrest. Just like 1980, I thought, and now with this "coup" I am convinced of it.

Considering that it has "failed" could it have been an effort to draw out unreliable members of the officer corps in advance of some radical plan of action? I keep thinking of the 30 September Movement in Indonesia as a possible model here, with the "coup" being made to neutralize the leader's opposition and allow for his desired response.

If the Turkish armed forces wanted to take control of the government by coup, as they did in 1960, 1971, 1980, 1993, and 1997, they would do it with quick efficiency as in times past and we would certainly make sure of it.

Your empathy for the Turkish people is entirely appropriate. Something terrible their way comes.

This is correct Woody, nothing of import happens in Turkey of which our intelligence community is not informed and does not direct. Like Germany and a few other NATO countries, Turkey is hosting US nuclear weapons. Only so much civil unrest will be tolerated.

[touchring]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

This is correct Woody, nothing of import happens in Turkey of which our intelligence community is not informed and does not direct. Like Germany and a few other NATO countries, Turkey is hosting US nuclear weapons. Only so much civil unrest will be tolerated.

How about transferring the nukes to Qatar instead? The past couple of years experience in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Ukraine shows that if things goes bad, the US will just pull out.

[Polish_Silver]

more than one turkey

. ..

The second thing I noticed was a complete lack of Turkish senior military chain of command broadcasting on TV/radio.



2) A "Reichstag fire" conducted to further Erdogan's boa constrictor like grip on the country's centres of gravity and power.

-----


We have been taught that increasing wealth correlates with secularity.

Turkey does not possess the massively lopsided disparity in wealth nor the incredibly rapid westernisation that sparked the Iranian Revolution.

Turkey has a massive broad and deep industrialised economy with a well educated workforce.......and it seems to be going against the grain of assumptions.

The US is considered a wealthy country, yet it seems be going crazy at times:

Patriot act
Iraq war
Trump for president

[Woodsman]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

...Only so much civil unrest will be tolerated.

Or created!

[touchring]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36838347

More than 15,000 education staff in Turkey have been suspended after last week's failed coup, as a purge of state officials widens still further.
The Ministry of Education accused them of links to Fethullah Gulen, a US-based cleric the Turkish government says was behind Friday's uprising.
Mr Gulen denies any involvement with the coup attempt .
Turkey's High Education board has also ordered the resignation of over 1,500 university deans, state media reported.

Parallels to Hitler's Nazi Germany?

http://jbuff.com/c013102.htm

The Expulsion of the Professors from the Universities in Nazi Germany, 1933-1941

[vt]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

I googled the question "Who did Turkey support in WW2? and came up with an article from histclo.com.

It's interesting what Turkey did to help professors have a place to go fleeing the Nazis:


"Turkey after the NAZIs seized power in Germany (1933) offered refugee to Jewish university professors and scholars, mostly scientists. The country at the time was laying the foundation for a modern university system and the refugee Jewish scholars played an important role in that undertaking. Turkey subsequently played a role in saving thousands of European Jews from the NAZIs. Turkey remained neutral most of the War. Both sides made extensive diplomatic efforts to draw Turkey into the War. NAZI diplomats thought they had succeeded, but the Soviet victory at Stalingrad ended any possbility of Turkey joining the Axis. The Turks allowed the passage of thousands of Jewish refugees to Palestine at a time that Both the Germans and British attempted to prevent this. The Turks also protected its Jewish citizes and attempted to resuce Turkish Jewsin the occupied countries. They succeed in saving 3,000 of the 10,000 Tukish Jews in France and several hundred in Greece. As many as 100,000 Jews may have been saved by the Turks. [Shaw] The Struma incident suggests that the Turkish policy as to non-Turkish refugeees was essentially passive (1941-42). The Turks did, however, allow Istanbul to be used by Jewish Agency and by other Jewish organizations established to assist and rescue East European Jews fleeing the Holocaust. Turkish Authorities allowed eefuges without passports or visas to enter the country. I'm not sure, however, how many were allowed to stay in Turkey. Authorities also allowed ships carrying refugees to pass through its coastal waters. Individual Turkish diplomats also helped save Jews. Turkish diplomats even issue false papers to Jews in NAZI-occupied areas. Turkish Consul Selahattin Ulkumen on the Greek island of Rhodes arrived at about the same time as the NAZI occupation force (1941). When the NAZIs began rounding up Jews on the island, he intervened maintaing that some were Turkish citizens. He helped save 32 Jews, but his pregnant wife was killed in the process. He was then rescue 32 Jews from the island's Jewish community, but ultimately led to his wife's death. The NAZIs deported Ulkumen to Piraeus where he spent the rest of the War in jail. The Apostolic Delegate in Turkey, Archbishop Roncalli (who became Pope John XXIII) attempted to rescue Hungarian Jews."

[Woodsman]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

...Parallels to Hitler's Nazi Germany?

You do know that's the propaganda line they've used in what, the last three wars, to set up for regime change. I don't have any special insight here, but it's curious to me considering how many such coups there have been in Turkey since the end of WWII, that now we're comparing the plotters actions to the Nazis. But they were every bit as nazified in their contempt for their enemies as recently as 1980.

The coup rounded up members of both the left and right for trial with military tribunals. Within a very short time, there were 250,000^[8] to 650,000 people detained. Among the detainess, 230,000 were tried, 14,000 were stripped of citizenship, and 50 were executed.^[16] In addition, hundreds of thousands of people were tortured, and thousands are still missing. A total of 1,683,000 people were blacklisted.^[17] Apart from the militants killed during shootings, at least four prisoners were legally executed immediately after the coup; the first ones since 1972, while in February 1982 there were 108 prisoners condemned to capital punishment.^[9] Among the prosecuted were Ecevit, Demirel, Türkeş, and Erbakan, who were incarcerated and temporarily suspended from politics.
One notable victim of the hangings was a 17-year-old Erdal Eren, who said he looked forward to it in order to avoid thinking of the torture he had witnessed.^[18]
After having taken advantage of the Grey Wolves' activism, General Kenan Evren imprisoned hundreds of them. At the time they were some 1700 Grey Wolves organizations in Turkey, with about 200,000 registered members and a million sympathizers.^[19] In its indictment of the MHP in May 1981, the Turkish military government charged 220 members of the MHP and its affiliates for 694 murders.^[10] Evren and his cohorts realized that Türkeş was a charismatic leader who could challenge their authority using the paramilitary Grey Wolves.^[20] Following the coup in Colonel Türkeş's indictment, the Turkish press revealed the close links maintained by the MHP with security forces as well asorganized crime involved in drug trade, which financed in return weapons and the activities of hired fascist commandos all over the country.^[9]

Constitution[edit]

Within three years the generals passed some 800 laws in order to form a militarily disciplined society.^[21] The coup members were convinced of the unworkability of the existing constitution. They decided to adopt a new constitution that included mechanisms to prevent what they saw as impeding the functioning of democracy. On 29 June 1981 the military junta appointed 160 people as members of an advisory assembly to draft a new constitution. The new constitution brought clear limits and definitions, such as on the rules of election of the president, which was stated as a factor for the coup d'état.
On 7 November 1982 the new constitution was put to a referendum, which was accepted with 92% of the vote. On 9 November 1982 Kenan Evren was appointed President for the next seven years.
Result[edit]

• 650,000 people were under arrest.
• 1,683,000 people were blacklisted.
• 230,000 people were tried in 210,000 lawsuits.
• 7,000 people were recommended for the death penalty.
• 517 persons were sentenced to death.
• 50 of those given the death penalty were executed (26 political prisoners, 23 criminal offenders and 1 ASALA militant).
• The files of 259 people, which had been recommended for the death penalty, were sent to the National Assembly.
• 71,000 people were tried by articles 141, 142 and 163 of Turkish Penal Code.
• 98,404 people were tried on charges of being members of a leftist, a rightist, a nationalist, a conservative, etc. organization.
• 388,000 people were denied a passport.
• 30,000 people were dismissed from their firms because they were suspects.
• 14,000 people had their citizenship revoked.
• 30,000 people went abroad as political refugees.
• 300 people died in a suspicious manner.
• 171 people died by reason of torture.
• 937 films were banned because they were found objectionable.
• 23,677 associations had their activities stopped.
• 3,854 teachers, 120 lecturers and 47 judges were dismissed.
• 400 journalists were recommended a total of 4,000 years imprisonment.
• Journalists were sentenced 3,315 years and 6 months imprisonment.
• 31 journalists went to jail.
• 300 journalists were attacked.
• 3 journalists were shot dead.
• 300 days in which newspapers were not published.
• 303 cases were opened for 13 major newspapers.
• 39 tonnes of newspapers and magazines were destroyed.
• 299 people lost their lives in prison.
• 144 people died in a suspicious manner in prison.
• 14 people died in hunger strikes in prison.
• 16 people were shot while fleeing.
• 95 people were killed in combat.
• "Natural death report" for 73 persons was given.
• The cause of death of 43 people was announced as "suicide".

Source: The Grand National Assembly of Turkey (Turkish: Turkiye Buyuk Millet Meclisi - TBMM)^[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_T...%A9tat#Economy

Of course the generals were on the right side of the fence at the time.

American involvement[edit]

Following the 1979 Iranian Revolution, Washington had lost its main ally in the region, while the Carter doctrine, formulated on 23 January 1980, stated that the United States would use military force if necessary to defend its national interests in the Persian Gulf region. Turkey received large sums of economic aid, mainly organized by the OECD, and military aid from NATO, but the USA in particular.^[29] Between 1979 and 1982 the OECD countries raised $4 billion in economic aid to Turkey.^[30]
Washington started developing the Rapid Deployment Forces (RDF) in implementation of the Carter doctrine, for a quick intervention in areas outside NATO, particularly in the Persian Gulf, and without having to rely on NATO troops. On 1 October 1979 President Jimmy Carter announced the foundation of the RDF. One day before the military coup of 12 September 1980 some 3,000 American troops of the RDF started a maneuver Anvil Express on Turkish soil.^[31] Just before the coup, the general in charge of the Turkish Air Forces had travelled to the United States.^[9] At the end of 1981 a Turkish-American Defense Council (Turkish: Türk-Amerikan Savunma Konseyi) was founded. Defense Minister Ümit Haluk and Richard Perle, then US Assistant Secretary of Defense international security policy of the new Reagan administration, and the deputy Chief of Staff Necdet Öztorun participated in its first meeting on 27 April 1982. On 9 October 1982 a "Memorandum of Understanding" (Turkish: Mutabakat Belgesi) was signed with a focus of extending airports mainly in the Southeast for military purposes. Such airports were built in the provinces of Batman, Muş, Bitlis,Van and Kars in the south-east.
The American support of this coup was acknowledged by the CIA Ankara station chief Paul Henze. After the government was overthrown, Henze cabled Washington, saying, "our boys [in Ankara] did it."^[32] This has created the impression that the United States stood behind the coup. Henze denied this during a June 2003 interview on CNN Türk's Manşet, but two days later Birand presented an interview with Henze recorded in 1997 in which he basically^[vague]confirmed Mehmet Ali Birand's story.^[33][34] The US State Department itself announced the coup during the night between 11 and 12 September: the military had phoned the US embassy in Ankara to alert them of the coup an hour in advance.^[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_T...an_involvement

Maybe the way it turned out was how the Turkish media was playing it all along. AEI predicted as much in March, so maybe they got advanced notice that Ankara station was looking to make some changes in leadership. If they could then it's conceivable the Turkish leadership found out about it too and decided to make some changes of its own.

[jk]

Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

the more i read about the thousands of people being purged, the more it looks like the "coup" was staged by erdogan as an excuse to consolidate his power even further. how, in mere days, could anyone compile these lists of thousands of judges, police, educators, administrators who were supposedly plotters or sympathizers? the lists were made beforehand, awaiting their excuse.