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  • #61
    Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

    Personally, I feel the term "global cop" referencing the US and it's role as sole superpower is about as overused as the word "terrorist".

    I think of the US's role as enforcer.

    Enforcer of its own interests.....and by "its" I don't mean the citizenry of the US, I mean the special interests with the influence and control.

    I'm having a real hard time guessing what the intent and desired end state of US foreign policy for the region is.

    All I know is that the volatility in currencies and commodities in recent years seems to be matched in the volatility of foreign policy(NOT just US, but also UK and France).

    Qaddafi wore a black hat up thru post 9/11....until he did a deal renouncing WMDs, paid a fine for his past and well evidenced state backed terrorism, partnered with western intelligence efforts against AQ franchisees, and did deals with western oil companies leading to Tony Blair's visiting Tripoli, kissing his ass and annointing him a white hat good guy.

    The French offered to sell their shiniest and most expensive pieces of military kit with the US taking a more muted response but was largely onboard with the switch to "good guy" for Qaddafi.

    Fast forward a few years, pro western ME dictatorships fall like dominos, and UK/France supported by the US(since their conventional military force projection capability has been largely self-neutered) stab Qaddafi in the back.

    Inconsistent, erratic, volatile.

    Is western leadership THAT terribly inept?

    Is the goal maybe disruption/dislocation itself?

    Or is it maybe as simple as "no plan survives first contact with the enemy"?

    In the military(and on corporate civvie street) there is a concept called the OODA loop....Observe, Orient, Decide, Act.

    Getting inside an opponent's OODA loop forces a reboot of their decision cycle.

    Think and act faster than your opponent can think and act.

    Could a hybrid overt/covert intervention in Libya represent an early battle in a war EJ fears is on the horizon, but may have already begun, as well as an effort to get inside an opponent's(or is it opponents'?) strategic OODA loop?

    Disrupt non-Western European/US efforts to ring-fence Libya?

    Send a message to other oil states that leaving a US/Western European sphere of influence/dollar hegemony by attacking as easier to disrupt oil state has potentially very serious consequences.

    Even with the Balkanization risk/mess(including Balkan sized long-term arms accumulation for an eternal civil war), Libya represents an "easy"(relatively speaking) battlespace from a NATO perspective . Location relative to European NATO infrastructure, location relative to friendly/amenable militaries(Egypt for US, Chad for France), location relative to any nations/opposition capable of effective disruption/interdiction, terrain(bar urban/built up areas that might be choked and disrupted without costly urban fighting by western forces) consists of mostly open country/desert which is the easiest terrain to influence/control/dominate at the lowest "cost".

    From my perspective, I see a whole lot of layers to this rotten onion:

    Domino effect of both western backed and western opposed dictatorships in the region(Syria appears to be sacking Hama again like back in 1982)

    Libyan Intervention

    Arab World centre of gravity Egypt reboot/force quit

    Saudi intervention in Bahrain(as well as it's FAR less successful interdiction of Yemen based insurgents in recent years).....Saudis/Arabs are widely regarded as being militarily inept at the state level(with substantial evidence to support these arguments...as proven in Yemen by Saudi failures.....but their intervention in Bahrain is interesting..to me, I see it as a break towards a self-directed regional foreign policy. I see it as maybe the Saudis are beginning to view the US as an unreliable partner.

    Growing Russian energy leverage over Western Europe(successfully opposed under the Reagan Administration during the Cold War).

    Persian Iran's quest for nuclear "poison pill" and it's cascading ramifications for Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Pakistan, and Iraq....it's not just Israel.

    Pakistan's growing instability and movement towards nuclear armed failed state status.

    I'm sure there's heaps of others to add to the pile.......the number of moving parts in this large cluster of crisis is substantial.

    The only thing I know for sure is that I haven't got a clue as to where things are accurately heading for the region, but trying to keep up with where things are(and speculating a bit).

    I've had a fair bit of success in promoting this forum to friends and peers both in and out of the military and on/offline.

    While I would agree that this forum represents a great perspective on this topic(as stated before I find GRG55's commentary quite enlightening) I would encourage folks to broaden their search a bit to possibly include the Small Wars Journal forum.

    http://smallwarsjournal.com/

    http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/index.php

    I do NOT have a stake in the outcome of promoting it....I'm just a forum member there(promoting iTulip) and here.....but growing frustrated by the lack of cross pollination between the increasingly intertwined subjects of finance/economics and defense/security.

    If war/conflict is on the horizon as EJ and others here predict surely it would make sense to try and effectively merge the two disciplines with at least a wee bit of cross pollination as I'm not aware of any individual or community in open source that has managed to do so. That community has their versions of EJ, Bart, GRG55, and Finster.

    I've brought this topic up a few times as I think it's quite important....but I think this will be my last effort.

    Having blatantly stolen EJ's reference to China's place in the global economy I'll state again my feeling that this global mess feels like the "1930's with 21st century characteristics".

    What I'm having a hard time trying to reconcile(and where my feelings may be falling short) is the alignment of nations on "sides" as our risk of conflict(in some form or other be it conventional, nuclear, unconventional, assymmetric, economic, or ?? ) increases. I suspect things might be a lot more fluid and less rigid moving forward.

    As the velocity of conflict has increased...I suspect maybe my feeling might be a bit invalid in respect to who's on what side.

    A good number of nations chose decisively between mostly two sides during WWII. I'm wondering if we are likely to see a lot more than two sides to the conflict coin...as we inevitably switch from a unipolar to multipolar world again...as well as even more nations choosing to reside in the grey until the dust settles.

    Comment


    • #62
      Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

      Well don't forget how confused Russian/German relations were right before Barbarossa. Britain/France wanted an alliance with Poland and Russia, against Germany. Poland, fearing Russia more than Germany, instead urged Britain/France to leave the Soviet Union out in the cold, and just have a treaty instead to support Poland if attacked. So the Soviet Union, feeling the jilted party, ended up signing a non-aggression pact with Germany of all people, their arch enemy. Then throw in Finland, who were attacked by the Soviet Union, irritating Germany, who feared loss of access to essential minerals. At times it seemed they might end up with a three way war. Loyalties were not that clear in the Balkans especially. But eventually, most nations were forced to align themselves despite valiant attempts to "reside in the grey" as you say. It remains to be seen how much the US or Russia or China will allow other countries to sit it out. I doubt it will be easy. Especially since its their backyards the big boys want to fight in.

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

        Originally posted by coolhand View Post
        If you keep an oil producing region in chaos while supporting a few dictators in those regions, without damaging the oil infrastructure itself, you extend the period of time where you have unfettered access to the oil, and it will be cheaper. If you don't have chaos, then the oil $ will drive economic development that wil drive more oil use in the region, reducing oil net exports and making the oil more expensive for the US...
        Perhaps, but I think maybe we give them too much credit for thinking things through. More likely its simply a turf war. These countries will need engineering, cell phone networks, infrastructure consulting. They want a Western company in there providing these things, not a Chinese or Russian one. Like a drug dealer staking his territory, those who won't fight to protect their turf only welcome new competition. These nations are seen as the last frontier of rapid economic growth. The kind of growth that brings a nice payoff on Wall Street. The last of the easy pickings if you will.

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

          Originally posted by coolhand View Post
          If you keep an oil producing region in chaos while supporting a few dictators in those regions, without damaging the oil infrastructure itself, you extend the period of time where you have unfettered access to the oil, and it will be cheaper. If you don't have chaos, then the oil $ will drive economic development that wil drive more oil use in the region, reducing oil net exports and making the oil more expensive for the US...
          So eight years of USA instigated bloody chaos in Iraq has given the USA unfettered access to Iraqi oil and kept oil cheaper for the USA over that time frame?

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

            Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
            So eight years of USA instigated bloody chaos in Iraq has given the USA unfettered access to Iraqi oil and kept oil cheaper for the USA over that time frame?
            Has it possibly helped keep said oil denominated in USD instead of Euro, Yuan, Yen?

            I ask because I simply don't know.

            There has been noise post 2003 Iraq invasion about efforts by Saddam era Iraq, Iran, and/or Qaddafi's Libya to attempt to price/trade oil in currencies other than USD.

            I don't know whether that is noise, or if there is any signal in there....or how to differentiate the two.

            One of many things I'm unsure of whether it represents rumor, truth, or storm in a teacup.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

              Originally posted by aaron View Post

              Or, the U.S. leaves. Dictators step down. Democracy unites all! Peace and love reigns. France, Germany, and Turkey all hold hands and provide peace and aid to the lands.

              ---------
              & the 'rebels' in libya are about democracy...

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                Sorry, I re-read all your posts, and they're still not coherent.

                How about you summarize your position in 5 sentences or less.
                First, I appreciate GRG55's posts - this thread and the crisis in Europe thread in particular I always look forward to these.

                Back to the topic:

                c1ue, as for making my case more clear, how about the Socratic method? Keep in mind, I am looking at this with a macro view encompassing a broad sweep of history that begins with WWII to today - From FDR's meeting with the Saudi Royalty to the Libyan events taking place today. Whether individual US actions in the ME always make sense or not are individual/separate issues. Think Big Picture, War and Statecraft - Sovereign and resource dynamics.

                Here are the questions:

                Should the US completely pull out of the Middle East? No military presence, no funding, no nothing. Basically: Israel - you're on your own. Saudi clan - good luck. Gulf Emirates - nice doing business. Iran - knock yourself out dude, we don't care anymore - we're pacifists now.

                Without a US presence, would there be a geopolitical reshuffling in the ME, and would that impact oil flows?

                If the US left the Middle East, would nations such as China and Russia sit on their hands and watch?

                How would such a move by the US affect Germany or Japan - large industry-based consumers of petroleum?

                How would the existing global US-based monetary system be impacted by a complete withdrawal from the Middle East?

                How would such a withdrawal affect the average American?

                Here's a summary of how I see it: Were the US to leave the ME completely, all hell would break loose. Period.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  c1ue, as for making my case more clear, how about the Socratic method?
                  The Socratic method is idiotic - it is primarily for impressing your view upon ignorant people.

                  But sure, let's play your game.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  Should the US completely pull out of the Middle East? No military presence, no funding, no nothing. Basically: Israel - you're on your own. Saudi clan - good luck. Gulf Emirates - nice doing business. Iran - knock yourself out dude, we don't care anymore - we're pacifists now.
                  Yes. After withdrawal, the US puts forward a policy which states any ME nation which attacks another gets bombed, up to and including nuclear weapons.

                  End of story.

                  See: Monroe Doctrine, Truman Doctrine, Berlin Airlift, etc etc.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  Without a US presence, would there be a geopolitical reshuffling in the ME, and would that impact oil flows?
                  No.

                  See above.

                  See also: Iraq oil flows before invasion. Iran oil flows before embargo/isolation. Libya oil flows before bombing.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  If the US left the Middle East, would nations such as China and Russia sit on their hands and watch?
                  As if the US' land based occupation experiences weren't enough, neither China nor Russia have the capability of fielding sufficient forces to occupy any significantly sized ME country. So it is unclear exactly what you're attempting to say.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  How would such a move by the US affect Germany or Japan - large industry-based consumers of petroleum?
                  No effect whatsoever.

                  Your sad attempt at a Socratic method is entirely based on a false premise: that the US' land military presence is all that keeps the price of oil low.

                  Well, the price of oil ain't low. The US' land military presence's supposed impact is thus thoroughly suspect.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  How would the existing global US-based monetary system be impacted by a complete withdrawal from the Middle East?
                  This is more interesting: the petro dollar is one of 3 legs which keeps the US dollar as a global reserve currency. However, so long as the US provides its protection to Saudi Arabia as well as retains its big stick, it is not clear why the above mentioned 'Obama Doctrine' couldn't accomplish the same result but without massive land based military expenditures.

                  See: US exit from Bretton Woods, Oil Embargo, Formation of Petro-Dollar standard - the latter which was accomplished with ZERO US troops in the ME.

                  Originally posted by gnk
                  How would such a withdrawal affect the average American?
                  Well, I'd say that the existing policy which has accompanied a quadrupling of oil prices since 2001, and a doubling of oil prices since 2005 - has already dramatically affected the average American.

                  Or to turn your method back on you:

                  How would you reduce oil prices?

                  What is the exit strategy for a military adventure which is literally bankrupting the economy it is based from?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                    Originally posted by lakedaemonian View Post
                    Has it possibly helped keep said oil denominated in USD instead of Euro, Yuan, Yen?
                    It is because of these wars that the dollar will lose its reserve currency status. The cost of military occupation around the world and waging the wars in the ME and Afghanistan has created massive debt. We have to print huge quantities of money in order to service that debt. The resulting dollar devaluation is exporting so much inflation around the world, causing so much starvation and political instability, that there is movement afoot to replace the dollar as the world's reserve currency- especially where oil is concerned. By allowing our dollars to resemble monopoly money we will lose the advantages we had as the world's reserve currency. We have already lost a tremendous amount of goodwill and respect from other nations that used to look up to us.

                    Just my $0.02 and worth probably less than that.

                    Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                      Once again, I am not supporting any specific US action vis a vis the Middle East. I am supporting the "cop" or "mafia don" or enforcer role as opposed to no US involvement whatsoever. Picking US failed policies in the Middle East is easy. There are loads of examples. But we need to be honest with ourselves. No US involvement would be a nightmare.

                      Your statement:

                      "After withdrawal, the US puts forward a policy which states any ME nation which attacks another gets bombed, up to and including nuclear weapons.

                      End of story."

                      You pretty much agree on some sort of "cop" role. (Looks more mafia don to me - actually, including Nukes is madness, but anyway....) That's why I posed that question. I don't see what the debate between us is anymore. Looks like we actually agree. It's the nuances of the role of "cop," or "mafia don" or a little of both where the debate exists, IMO. That was my point the entire time. I never said Iraq was a necessary involvement. I said the US' role is necessary for modern industrial civilization to exist.

                      Is the US acting the best it can? I would say no. Should the US act at all in the ME? Hell yeah.

                      But I'll say this. You know why Iraq was peaceful pre US invasion?

                      Because of the "mafia don" tactics employed by Saddam Hussein, not the "absence" of US troops. To me that's an ugly truth I don't like accepting.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                        Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                        How does a new form of "chaos theory" sound? With the US military and State Department supplying the "butterfly effect"...


                        On the verge of another "permanently" chaotic MENA nation?
                        Gaddafi's son Saif arrested in Libya: ICC

                        AMSTERDAM | Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:48pm EDT

                        AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The International Criminal Court prosecutor said on Sunday Saif al-Islam, the son of Libya's Muammar Gaddafi, had been detained in Libya.

                        "Saif was captured in Libya," prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo told Reuters. "We have confidential information from different sources that we have within Libya confirming this.

                        "It is very important to make clear there is an obligation to surrender Saif to the ICC in accordance with the Security Council resolution."

                        Libyan rebels said earlier that they had detained Saif and Gaddafi's eldest son Mohammed Al-Gaddafi.

                        In June the ICC issued arrest warrants for Gaddafi, his son Saif and Libyan intelligence chief Abdullah al-Senussi on charges of crimes against humanity after the U.N. Security Council referred the Libyan situation to the court in February...



                        Obama says Gaddafi rule collapsing, supports rebels

                        OAK BLUFFS, Mass. | Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:25am IST

                        OAK BLUFFS, Mass. (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama said on Sunday Muammar Gaddafi's rule was showing signs of collapse and called on the Libyan leader to relinquish power to avoid further casualties...

                        ...Obama has said the United States got involved to shield the Libyan people from humanitarian crisis, and pledged in his Sunday evening statement to stay involved after Gaddafi goes...

                        ..."The United States will continue to stay in close coordination with the TNC. We will continue to insist that the basic rights of the Libyan people are respected. And we will continue to work with our allies and partners in the international community to protect the people of Libya, and to support a peaceful transition to democracy," he said...


                        A little trip down memory lane:
                        Jun. 29, 2005
                        George W. Bush
                        THE PRESIDENT: I am absolutely confident that we made the right decision. And not only that, I'm absolutely confident that the actions we took in Iraq are influencing reformers and freedom lovers in the greater Middle East. And I believe that you're going to see the rise of democracy in many countries in the broader Middle East, which will lay the foundation for peace.

                        I wonder what the Obama edition of the "Mission Accomplished" banner will look like...
                        Last edited by GRG55; August 21, 2011, 11:35 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                          Meet the new boss/Same as the old boss.

                          Guantanamo Bay Detention Facility = operational
                          Forces in Afghanistan = tripled
                          Forays into Middle East = continuing
                          PATRIOT Act = extended for four years
                          Taxation = most regressive in 50 years
                          Massive Deficits = continuing

                          Don't take my word for it though.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                            So, who "won" in Libya and who "lost"?

                            Libya Rebel Oil Official Says China, Russia Will Have Trouble Getting New Deals

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                              Indeed, let's see what the picture looked like before 'intervention':

                              http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...72E23I20110315

                              * About 32 percent of Libya's oil goes to Italy, 14 percent to Germany, 10 percent to France and China and 5 percent to the United States.
                              Oops - inconvenient, those facts.

                              And of course the impact of the 'intervention' itself:

                              * OPEC member Libya is the world's 17th-largest oil producer, third-largest producer in Africa and holds the continent's largest crude oil reserves. It normally pumps around 1.6 million bpd, 85 percent of which is exported to Europe.
                              * Output is normally equivalent to about 2 percent of global consumption, and unrest has cut it to about 500,000 bpd as many foreign and local workers have left the fields.
                              [ID:nLDE7282MP]

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: Meanwhile Back in the Sandbox...

                                Thanks Largo, that was the funniest thing I've seen in days. War isn't funny, but this guy made me laugh out loud.

                                Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
                                Bill Hicks understood that almost 20 years ago without these internets.
                                Warning: Network Engineer talking economics!

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