health care in France

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: health care in France

...If you don't think most variants of the public option, if tried in the US, won't end up like public education, social security, and other similarly huge-in-scope programs, then you're kidding yourself. It will have problems roughly parallel to them.

Ghent12, I really like your posts, and am pleased and flattered to discuss this with you.

You made a claim that “… There are no parallels in any other industry where the government has a "public option" that inspire faith…” (sic) and your central point within the overall context of your post was the classic, well-worn chestnut that government cannot do anything right. Not one damn thing, not ever.

I offered you 5 examples right off the top of my head where government has gotten excellent results that “…offer faith…” I don’t think quibbling over the details of the FAA or the DOT will lead to greater understanding.

Private industry is also rife with examples of grand failures – the Ford Pinto; the Microsoft Zune; the Apple Newton; new Coke. Please recall that near the center of our current global economic crises are the reckless actions of private companies lending, borrowing, securitizing, and creating exotic and dangerous instruments.

If you really do believe that all government activity is a failure, there is good news. You can live in Somalia, or Chad, or Myanmar, where the zero-government paradise is available to you every day.

When we come together as a society to pool our money to build roads or schools or pay pensions, those actions are not doomed to fail because it is a government action. By any rational measure, the US Medicare system gives a pretty good service for the dollar. There is no fundamental reason that a single payer government health care system needs to fail. Outside the US, all people in the world who get good health care get it through such a system.

I don’t expect to change your mind on this topic; most people I know who adhere to your position do so as an article of faith, and are immune from logic on the subject. But I feel it’s important to challenge it in public, because it is logically incoherent and just flat wrong.

Cheers.

[c1ue]

Re: health care in France

If you don't think most variants of the public option, if tried in the US, won't end up like public education, social security, and other similarly huge-in-scope programs, then you're kidding yourself. It will have problems roughly parallel to them.

Completely unclear why this matters.

Any system will eventually be brought down by those who game that system's weak spots.

The point isn't to go Canadian and force all health care into a government only system.

The point is to provide an alternative to the private health care mess.

If the private health care insurance and private health care providers are so superior, there should be no issues with them being able to compete vs. a government run public health care provision system.

Its called economic checks and balances.

The problem, of course, is that you want to stop paying taxes for anything health care related - and choose to attack anything that might consume health care related taxes.

Well, that ain't gonna happen.

43 million people are on Medicare with 36 million being 65 or older. None of them are going to vote themselves out of all benefits. Their argument - which is correct in a strict sense - is that they paid their share of taxes and should now enjoy the benefits.

The only way to get around this is to provide the benefits in a way which won't bankrupt everybody.

[Ghent12]

Re: health care in France

Ghent12, I really like your posts, and am pleased and flattered to discuss this with you.

That's quite a compliment; you should save it for when you mean it.

You made a claim that “… There are no parallels in any other industry where the government has a "public option" that inspire faith…” (sic) and your central point within the overall context of your post was the classic, well-worn chestnut that government cannot do anything right. Not one damn thing, not ever.

I offered you 5 examples right off the top of my head where government has gotten excellent results that “…offer faith…” I don’t think quibbling over the details of the FAA or the DOT will lead to greater understanding.

Private industry is also rife with examples of grand failures – the Ford Pinto; the Microsoft Zune; the Apple Newton; new Coke. Please recall that near the center of our current global economic crises are the reckless actions of private companies lending, borrowing, securitizing, and creating exotic and dangerous instruments.

There was only a little rhetorical flourish in my claim which you quoted. In the details and specifics, I do not believe that government can do large-scope projects, ones which affect the majority of people, well for prolonged periods of time.

You are right that private industry is rife with grand failures. The primary difference between the private and public sector is, ironically, that the private sector is much more accountable to the public for its actions than the government. The primary reason for the failure in American health care currently is the private sector capture of government, and that is the reason why no long-term utilitarian solution can come from government. Public attention is drawn towards health care right now because of it is the political issue of the day, so perhaps some genuinely good public option can arise at present--but what about ten or fifteen years from now when the public is worried about something else? It's not just those that game the system that will come in--whole industries will capture it.

Social security, tax-exempt health insurance compensation, and numerous other government programs started off with good intentions and good results but have left us with perpetually increasing obligations and the Health Insurance Leviathan that is the root of exploding health care costs.

If you really do believe that all government activity is a failure, there is good news. You can live in Somalia, or Chad, or Myanmar, where the zero-government paradise is available to you every day.

When we come together as a society to pool our money to build roads or schools or pay pensions, those actions are not doomed to fail because it is a government action. By any rational measure, the US Medicare system gives a pretty good service for the dollar. There is no fundamental reason that a single payer government health care system needs to fail. Outside the US, all people in the world who get good health care get it through such a system.

I don’t expect to change your mind on this topic; most people I know who adhere to your position do so as an article of faith, and are immune from logic on the subject. But I feel it’s important to challenge it in public, because it is logically incoherent and just flat wrong.

Cheers.

Your examples are all wrong about governments--there exists political power in all those countries you listed, especially Myanmar. If you want to get into a semantic argument about the difference between written and implicit laws, then that's another matter--i.e., in Somalia you may fall under the jurisdiction of a warlord or other local leader and be required to obey the rules they set.

I'm not a ******* anarchist. I'm a republican with a small r. This hodge-podge democracy we have is gorging itself upon itself and constantly turning the weapon of government against one group or another. I simply want the weapon of government to be forever pointed outward to handle foreign considerations and maybe occasionally inward for infrastructure purposes. There is no possibility for long-term success with a U.S. public option so long as our political system works the way it does.

What is truly a matter of faith is saying you can rely on the U.S. government to look after everyone instead of the Interest Group de jour.