We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

[metalman]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

User Serge_Tomiko has been banned for one week for this post. Reasons:

1. Failure to comply with administration requests to follow forum rules.
2. Failure to show due respect for fellow iTulip members.
3. Persistent pattern of prejudicial assertions that are offensive to members.

cool. safe to come out of hiding. who wants to be associated with a site that tolerates racists.

[flintlock]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Andy Warhol was thought to only possess an IQ somewhere around 86 while Christopher Michael Langan one of the smartest men living works as a bar bouncer. I would think that all of us have an innate ability to make a lasting positive or negative contribution to this small world we live in for the so few years we are actually on it.

I do believe that we can always have an IQ test which will say that you are in fact brilliant regardless of your actual intelligence.

Remember we are all part cave man as well as part chimp. Humans and chimps can have anywhere between 95% - 98.5% genetic similarities depending on which study you read. Either way modern humans may have a single recent ancestor 10,000 or 200,000 years ago depending on whether you factor in a relationship with chimpanzees and to whether mutations or evolutions are considered. There really are so many permutations to consider, man, chimp, cave man, evolution and mutation. I even read somewhere that viruses can permanently alter our DNA. It really is an amazing thing DNA with such a complexities yet simple representation by just some letters in a sequence.

I would think sometimes we are related to the chimp much more than we realize. I for one will not act like one even if I innately can. I would suggest acting like a chimp won't make you too many friends or expand your scope of influence in online
forums and blogs. Perhaps in Hollywood but not here, but feel free to do so until I gather FRED says you cannot anymore.

Excellent post. Some people cling to a high IQ score like it was the Medal of Honor. The more concerned with IQ scores the more they betray their insecurity. I have a brother like that. He was having trouble of some sort when he was a boy and my mother took him to be tested for a variety of things. His IQ came back in the 150+ range and from that day on, in his mind, he became brilliant. Before then, he was pleasantly normal in his own mind. He became an insufferable bore at times. Constantly reminding others, including me, how smart he was. How there was no point in debating him on anything. The fact that I was his identical twin, and likely to have a similar IQ, apparently flew right past his brilliant mind. Today, like your example of the bartender, he cuts grass part time for a living. He is smart, no doubt. And I do feel he probably smarter than me. But he seems to have a hard time relating to other people without coming off like a jerk. Some of what I read on Itulp at times reminds me of my brother. Tactless. Immature. To be SEEN as always being correct is far more important to them than actually finding the truth of the matter. These people are slaves to their ego.

Joe is a friend of mine. Joe is a very accomplished Engineer. Works on Nuke plants, power plants that sort of thing. Now I know he is smart. He'd have to be to do what he does for a living. But I hardly know of anyone who knows the guy whose initial impression of him was not, " What an idiot!". He just lacks any sense at all at times. Do I think this guy is smarter that me? That's a tough question. Define smart. It certainly would not be my first inclination to say "yes, he's smarter". There has to be more than a simple score involved. I have to think the way we apply ourselves has a lot more to do with it.

But this idea that one race or another is better off because of a few points difference in IQ is just ridiculous. If you want to look for differences in success, work ethic, value on education, moral values, all rank higher than IQ.

[flintlock]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

I think people, including me, really mean "wiser" when they say people used to be smarter. People took life more seriously. Especially the poor. The social safety nets were just not there like today. People are definitely better educated in the US today. Neither of my grandparents on my Dad's side graduated HS. Yet my Dad was smart. He was the top all around military cadet in the US the year he graduated. My grandparents still valued education enough to send three boys through college in the 1950s, despite being fairly poor. So was it the genes or was it the emphasis on education/work ethic, etc?

I don't know...maybe intelligence and common sense are two different things.

Depends on who you ask. Ask an academician and he will say they are two different things.

Ask an employer, he'll say he won't hire you if you only have one without the other.

Fair enough - I'm just not convinced we're getting dumber. (this was the dumbest emotion I could find).

Perhaps its just my tolerance for dumb people that has changed since I was younger. Just yesterday I had to cancel a job at the last minute when an engineer emailed me to ask if the framing needed to be installed first before I could wire his home theater room. Nah, no problem, you can just slip the studs around the wiring later. Come on, an Engineer doesn't know this? ( I had already told him this as well) THIS kind of thing never used to happen 20 years ago when I started my business. Today its a common occurrence. People don't think anymore. I wouldn't care so much if it didn't cost me money. Another call: " My fan remote control fan doesn't work!" ME: "Did you check the batteries in the remote?" Silence.......... "Never mind".
Maybe people are just too overloaded today? Overstimulated? Over-medicated?

[lektrode]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

....objection is raising one ethnic group to a place of superiority over the others. That fantasy historically has made things usually worse. (This is my final posting on this thread - back to the economy!)

+1
and thanks fred...
the huffpo might be a better place for the rest of this.

[shiny!]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

IQ tests are limited in the kinds of intelligence they measure and also don't do justice to people who test poorly but are otherwise quite intelligent. According to Howard Gardner there are nine types of intelligence:

http://skyview.vansd.org/lschmidt/Pr...telligence.htm

1. Naturalist Intelligence (“Nature Smart”)

Designates the human ability to discriminate among living things (plants, animals) as well as sensitivity to other features of the natural world (clouds, rock configurations). This ability was clearly of value in our evolutionary past as hunters, gatherers, and farmers; it continues to be central in such roles as botanist or chef. It is also speculated that much of our consumer society exploits the naturalist intelligences, which can be mobilized in the discrimination among cars, sneakers, kinds of makeup, and the like.

2. Musical Intelligence (“Musical Smart”)

Musical intelligence is the capacity to discern pitch, rhythm, timbre, and tone. This intelligence enables us to recognize, create, reproduce, and reflect on music, as demonstrated by composers, conductors, musicians, vocalist, and sensitive listeners. Interestingly, there is often an affective connection between music and the emotions; and mathematical and musical intelligences may share common thinking processes. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are usually singing or drumming to themselves. They are usually quite aware of sounds others may miss.


3. Logical-Mathematical Intelligence (Number/Reasoning Smart)

Logical-mathematical intelligence is the ability to calculate, quantify, consider propositions and hypotheses, and carry out complete mathematical operations. It enables us to perceive relationships and connections and to use abstract, symbolic thought; sequential reasoning skills; and inductive and deductive thinking patterns. Logical intelligence is usually well developed in mathematicians, scientists, and detectives. Young adults with lots of logical intelligence are interested in patterns, categories, and relationships. They are drawn to arithmetic problems, strategy games and experiments.

4. Existential Intelligence


Sensitivity and capacity to tackle deep questions about human existence, such as the meaning of life, why do we die, and how did we get here.

5. Interpersonal Intelligence (People Smart”)

Interpersonal intelligence is the ability to understand and interact effectively with others. It involves effective verbal and nonverbal communication, the ability to note distinctions among others, sensitivity to the moods and temperaments of others, and the ability to entertain multiple perspectives. Teachers, social workers, actors, and politicians all exhibit interpersonal intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence are leaders among their peers, are good at communicating, and seem to understand others’ feelings and motives.

6. Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence (“Body Smart”)

Bodily kinesthetic intelligence is the capacity to manipulate objects and use a variety of physical skills. This intelligence also involves a sense of timing and the perfection of skills through mind–body union. Athletes, dancers, surgeons, and craftspeople exhibit well-developed bodily kinesthetic intelligence.

7. Linguistic Intelligence (Word Smart)

Linguistic intelligence is the ability to think in words and to use language to express and appreciate complex meanings. Linguistic intelligence allows us to understand the order and meaning of words and to apply meta-linguistic skills to reflect on our use of language. Linguistic intelligence is the most widely shared human competence and is evident in poets, novelists, journalists, and effective public speakers. Young adults with this kind of intelligence enjoy writing, reading, telling stories or doing crossword puzzles.

8. Intra-personal Intelligence (Self Smart”)

Intra-personal intelligence is the capacity to understand oneself and one’s thoughts and feelings, and to use such knowledge in planning and directioning one’s life. Intra-personal intelligence involves not only an appreciation of the self, but also of the human condition. It is evident in psychologist, spiritual leaders, and philosophers. These young adults may be shy. They are very aware of their own feelings and are self-motivated.

9. Spatial Intelligence (“Picture Smart”)

Spatial intelligence is the ability to think in three dimensions. Core capacities include mental imagery, spatial reasoning, image manipulation, graphic and artistic skills, and an active imagination. Sailors, pilots, sculptors, painters, and architects all exhibit spatial intelligence. Young adults with this kind of intelligence may be fascinated with mazes or jigsaw puzzles, or spend free time drawing or daydreaming.


From: Overview of the Multiple Intelligences Theory. Association for Supervision and Curriculum Development and Thomas Armstrong.com

Personally, I score high on my verbal IQ but have trouble processing symbolic languages and can't do math beyond a 3rd-grade level.

[shiny!]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

I think people, including me, really mean "wiser" when they say people used to be smarter. People took life more seriously. Especially the poor. The social safety nets were just not there like today. People are definitely better educated in the US today. Neither of my grandparents on my Dad's side graduated HS. Yet my Dad was smart. He was the top all around military cadet in the US the year he graduated. My grandparents still valued education enough to send three boys through college in the 1950s, despite being fairly poor. So was it the genes or was it the emphasis on education/work ethic, etc?

In some ways some people are better educated today than in the past, but in other ways they are not. Fifth-graders in the 1880's were expected to do calculations that are college entrance level math today- without calculators. Today students learn a much wider range of information but often their knowledge and understanding is superficial and shallow. Laura Ingalls Wilder's book "Little Town on the Prairie" describes the ordeals the students went through at their graduation ceremony. Small children multiplying and dividing large numbers in their heads, explaining their calculations out loud in front of a room full of people.

Perhaps its just my tolerance for dumb people that has changed since I was younger. Just yesterday I had to cancel a job at the last minute when an engineer emailed me to ask if the framing needed to be installed first before I could wire his home theater room. Nah, no problem, you can just slip the studs around the wiring later. Come on, an Engineer doesn't know this? ( I had already told him this as well) THIS kind of thing never used to happen 20 years ago when I started my business. Today its a common occurrence. People don't think anymore. I wouldn't care so much if it didn't cost me money. Another call: " My fan remote control fan doesn't work!" ME: "Did you check the batteries in the remote?" Silence.......... "Never mind".
Maybe people are just too overloaded today? Overstimulated? Over-medicated?

I see this, too. Overloaded + Overstimulated + Over-medicated. Not either/or, but all of the above. Many people can't do math without calculators, can't write a letter by hand or type without spell checkers, can't even remember phone numbers because their phones remember for them. My son told me that the residents coming out of medical school at his hospital are barely even competent. They'd call him in the middle of the night to ask the dumbest questions- stuff he learned in medical school before he was even an intern- because they were too lazy to open a book or type a question into the database for themselves.

[jpatter666]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

In some ways some people are better educated today than in the past, but in other ways they are not. Fifth-graders in the 1880's were expected to do calculations that are college entrance level math today- without calculators. Today students learn a much wider range of information but often their knowledge and understanding is superficial and shallow. Laura Ingalls Wilder's book "Little Town on the Prairie" describes the ordeals the students went through at their graduation ceremony. Small children multiplying and dividing large numbers in their heads, explaining their calculations out loud in front of a room full of people.

I see this, too. Overloaded + Overstimulated + Over-medicated. Not either/or, but all of the above. Many people can't do math without calculators, can't write a letter by hand or type without spell checkers, can't even remember phone numbers because their phones remember for them. My son told me that the residents coming out of medical school at his hospital are barely even competent. They'd call him in the middle of the night to ask the dumbest questions- stuff he learned in medical school before he was even an intern- because they were too lazy to open a book or type a question into the database for themselves.

I plead guilty to have my phone remember all the phone numbers.....

But yes, I've seen the gradual erosion of skills due to technological advances. Calculators were rare (or forbidden) in math classes -- now they are taken for granted. No one bothers to learn anything because they can google it as fast or faster. Doonesbury did an amusing strip on this....

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/06/26

[aaron]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Flintlock... you ought to visit some more homes (people who cannot afford your services). You can find as many dumb people as you like!

When I hire somebody to do something for my house, I do not want to think. That is the point. Otherwise, I would just do it myself.
====

There are a lot of jobs out there (varying, not quantity). I think many jobs require no thinking at all, at least after initially learning your tasks. Some jobs require thinking, but they are still fairly routine. I suspect accountants would fall into this category, for example. And, then there are jobs like computer engineering where you must learn new things every day just to keep up and stay employed. Medical doctors should do the same thing, but often do not. They will not be fired for it, however.

[aaron]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Exactly! Intelligence is so incredibly complex, I've never been convinced we know how to measure it effectively. I've seen some pretty smart people do some unbelievably stupid things. People with multiple degrees, who lack almost any common sense, or who's personal lives are constantly in complete disarray, despite the fact it's obvious what the problem is. Differences in work ethic and values can also account for the difference in success, probably just as much as intelligence. But then its hard to measure those like you can IQ score.

You can train for the IQ tests and their derivatives (SAT, etc) and anybody who needs to take one of those tests for a real reason will do train hard. So, I would say that they do measure hard work to an extent.

I believe that hard work is much more important that intelligence. An average person can attain quite high positions in our society if they work hard. You can even be President. However, a lazy genius will not go anywhere.

[chr5648]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Excellent post. Some people cling to a high IQ score like it was the Medal of Honor. The more concerned with IQ scores the more they betray their insecurity. I have a brother like that. He was having trouble of some sort when he was a boy and my mother took him to be tested for a variety of things. His IQ came back in the 150+ range and from that day on, in his mind, he became brilliant. Before then, he was pleasantly normal in his own mind. He became an insufferable bore at times. Constantly reminding others, including me, how smart he was. How there was no point in debating him on anything. The fact that I was his identical twin, and likely to have a similar IQ, apparently flew right past his brilliant mind. Today, like your example of the bartender, he cuts grass part time for a living. He is smart, no doubt. And I do feel he probably smarter than me. But he seems to have a hard time relating to other people without coming off like a jerk. Some of what I read on Itulp at times reminds me of my brother. Tactless. Immature. To be SEEN as always being correct is far more important to them than actually finding the truth of the matter. These people are slaves to their ego.

Joe is a friend of mine. Joe is a very accomplished Engineer. Works on Nuke plants, power plants that sort of thing. Now I know he is smart. He'd have to be to do what he does for a living. But I hardly know of anyone who knows the guy whose initial impression of him was not, " What an idiot!". He just lacks any sense at all at times. Do I think this guy is smarter that me? That's a tough question. Define smart. It certainly would not be my first inclination to say "yes, he's smarter". There has to be more than a simple score involved. I have to think the way we apply ourselves has a lot more to do with it.

But this idea that one race or another is better off because of a few points difference in IQ is just ridiculous. If you want to look for differences in success, work ethic, value on education, moral values, all rank higher than IQ.

Flintlock this is precisely the problem with our society. Your brother with a supposed 150+ IQ was allowed to wither away into what some of us may call mediocrity. Its people like your brother that we need to push forward, provide the resources, and lead the advancement of humanity. Instead we waste resources on the weak in a grand delusion. Think about how many people like your brother are wasted away because our society prefers to believe in egalitarianism and equality. He should have had the best possible educational and mentorship possible to get full use of his gift.

At the end you mention work ethic, morals, etc. I would argue that these are part of delay gratification and high time orientation. People who think into the future and take the future into account of their present behaviors and actions have a higher probability of success. Understanding that your actions in the present will influence your reputation and situation in the future can be construed as a quasi moral system too. There is more and more research being done on time preference and there is a good chance this is also an evolutionary adaptation. (Certain aspects of IQ tests measure your ability to look forward into time series and such).

[c1ue]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

You can train for the IQ tests and their derivatives (SAT, etc) and anybody who needs to take one of those tests for a real reason will do train hard. So, I would say that they do measure hard work to an extent.

This is also the problem.

In the early days of feudalism, any random man could theoretically become a knight. All you had to do was demonstrate your skills - various leadership as well as the basics of armored horseback combat.

Of course the problem is that a kid raised by peasants doesn't have the money to buy armor and weapons; doesn't have the time to train; and doesn't have anyone to train him.

Over time the barriers to entry for those not actually in the knightly classes to have the opportunity to become a knight solidify into stone, and from there arose royalty.

Massive income inequality, education costs rising 3x over inflation, 'buying' your way into top colleges via million dollar plus donations, alumni policies, etc etc are a new form of the same type of barriers above.

And the effect will be identical.

[aaron]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

This is also the problem.

In the early days of feudalism, any random man could theoretically become a knight. All you had to do was demonstrate your skills - various leadership as well as the basics of armored horseback combat.

Of course the problem is that a kid raised by peasants doesn't have the money to buy armor and weapons; doesn't have the time to train; and doesn't have anyone to train him.

Over time the barriers to entry for those not actually in the knightly classes to have the opportunity to become a knight solidify into stone, and from there arose royalty.

Massive income inequality, education costs rising 3x over inflation, 'buying' your way into top colleges via million dollar plus donations, alumni policies, etc etc are a new form of the same type of barriers above.

And the effect will be identical.

I just got back from China & Taiwan where they actually do have a meritocracy for students. If you score highest on the national entrance exams, then you get to go to the best schools. Even the poor have a chance (although not as good, for sure). It does not foster creativity, but it sure does foster hard work and competitiveness.
-------
Regarding main thread, it is not a race issue, it is cultural issue. The cultures that teach their kids to work hard and do well in school tend to do well in the current economic system. They will also score higher on IQ tests because of the hard work and schooling.

I suspect poverty makes it tougher to make sure your kids are disciplined. It is self-perpetuating to a degree, I bet. Parents have crappy parents as their only example, so they become bad parents. Perhaps our schools should be teaching kids how to be good parents so the next generation might have a better chance.

In fact, almost everything discussed in this thread can be attributed to bad parenting. Poverty is an excuse. It is really hard to get out of it, I get it. However, I am not convinced it is impossible.

----------
Here is how I would solve the problem if I were King with a long reign.

Free abortion to anybody who wants it.
Women take responsibility for their own bodies and pregnancy. They do not get money from the semen donor or from the government.

Yes, it will take some time, but we would get results.

[touchring]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Here is how I would solve the problem if I were King with a long reign.

Free abortion to anybody who wants it.
Women take responsibility for their own bodies and pregnancy. They do not get money from the semen donor or from the government.

Yes, it will take some time, but we would get results.

Do you mean like the King of Singapore? He is proof that such measures lead to disaster in the long run. Many others like Adolf Hitler and the Spartans have tried it, but social engineering and eugenics never works in the long run. Societies rise and fall, no amount of social engineering can prevent this.

In old Korea, they had a very strict caste system in which the population is divided into nobility (split into scholars and military class), commoner, merchants, laborers, and slaves. There was no way to move from one class to another - though merchants that are very wealthy can act like nobility. It was so strict, if a noble were to have a son with a slave, that son will still be considered slave caste. This is social engineering and it failed. Korea was the Africa of the 19th century.

There are many factors that determine the success of a society and IQ is only one of them. There is also MQ - moral quotient, which is very lacking today. A society that lacks MQ is break into chaos in a matter of time....

[LazyBoy]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Education reform led by the Business Roundtable has been a key part of the ruling class strategy, first formulated in 1972, to go on the counteroffensive against labor and the "revolution of rising expectations" of the 1960s and early '70s. I see the bank bailouts, European austerity plans, and the current attack on Social Security and Medicare as part of that counteroffensive.

Some of you may be interested in this speech I gave some years ago (1997) to the Massachusetts Association of School Superintendents analyzing the business-led education refrorm movement. It anticipates many current developments.

SCHOOL REFORM AND THE ATTACK ON PUBLIC EDUCATION by David G. Stratman [newdemocracyworld.org] The following speech was delivered as the Keynote Address to the Massachusetts Association of School Superintendents Summer Institute, 1997. The audience included about 275 school superintendents and assistant superintendents. ...I have two propositions I would like to put to you. The first is that the official education reform movement in Massachusetts and the nation is part of a decades-long corporate and government attack on public education and on our children. Its goal is: --not to increase educational attainment but to reduce it; --not to raise the hopes and expectations of our young people but to narrow them, stifle them, and crush them; --not to improve public education but to destroy it. My second proposition is that the education reform movement is part of a wider corporate and government plan to undermine democracy and strengthen corporate domination of our society. ...

Very interesting stuff, thanks. How was it received at the time? How do you think education has faired since then?

Where do you think the line is between conspirators and dupes? When bills like that go out, do you think the Senators are actively worried about over-educated masses with high expectations? Or are they greedy dupes of slick lobbyists?

[aaron]

Re: We're all part Cave-Man (Neanderthal) except for the Africans

Do you mean like the King of Singapore? He is proof that such measures lead to disaster in the long run. Many others like Adolf Hitler and the Spartans have tried it, but social engineering and eugenics never works in the long run. Societies rise and fall, no amount of social engineering can prevent this.

In old Korea, they had a very strict caste system in which the population is divided into nobility (split into scholars and military class), commoner, merchants, laborers, and slaves. There was no way to move from one class to another - though merchants that are very wealthy can act like nobility. It was so strict, if a noble were to have a son with a slave, that son will still be considered slave caste. This is social engineering and it failed. Korea was the Africa of the 19th century.

There are many factors that determine the success of a society and IQ is only one of them. There is also MQ - moral quotient, which is very lacking today. A society that lacks MQ is break into chaos in a matter of time....

Would the MQ be higher in the country if all children were taken care of by their parents? I think yes.

We already allow abortions. The people who really should get them have a incentive not to. Abortions are expensive for poor people. The government will provide assistance for a baby (at least that is what Fox news said at the airport). Fathers can be forced by the court to pay child support. It ain't a bad deal to have that baby for a young woman.

It needs to be a bad deal.