Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

[lektrode]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Colorado's CSU hiked rates 20%
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/06/2...-tuition-hike/
...
Just like housing, it's the influx of debt money that's driving up prices. If students had to pay out of pocket universities could easily find a way to educate them for a far more reasonable price.

if the ivory-tower/tenured-class had to compete in The Real World, the prices would come down so fast it would make the banksters heads spin...

[lektrode]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

For the 2009-2010 academic year, public institutions averaged $12,804 for tuition, room, and board. Tuition accounted for $4715 of that.

Private institutions averaged $32,184, of which $22,604 was tuition.

These numbers are for full-time undergraduate students in all degree-granting institutions. Limiting the dataset to just universities pushes the overall numbers to $16,712 and $44,619, with $8,123 and $33,315 for tuition.
...

so it looks like the bottom line, ref'g what salnrich wrote is: BORROWING FOR DAILY LIVING EXPENSES IS WHATS CAUSING THE DEBT ENSLAVEMENT?

or to put it another way: if ya dont work and ya dont have mommy-n-daddy paying for it all, YA GOTTA GET A JOB while ya study, and the parties, springbreak-in-the-tropics, finedining, off-campus housing, the car, the ipad/data svc ????? fugetboutit, or be a debtslave and dont be bitchin about how its unfair, because yer just so into instant gratification that you just gotta have it all, NOW, before yer 25th birthday???

its a funny thing about getting something handed to you without having to work/sweat/stress for it: IT HAS NO VALUE, and this is what drives the mindset to borrow to the hilt to obtain today what used to require save/scrimp/sacrifice = the ME generation's bad habits have come home to roost

[bpr]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

For the 2009-2010 academic year, public institutions averaged $12,804 for tuition, room, and board. Tuition accounted for $4715 of that.

Private institutions averaged $32,184, of which $22,604 was tuition.

These numbers are for full-time undergraduate students in all degree-granting institutions. Limiting the dataset to just universities pushes the overall numbers to $16,712 and $44,619, with $8,123 and $33,315 for tuition.

Interesting. I'm wondering where you got your dataset and specifically if it includes community/junior colleges that only offer associates degrees.

I know you limited it to universities vs. all else, but there are four-year degree institutions (colleges) that don't offer graduate degrees, and there are community/junior colleges that only grant two-year associates degrees.

The cost of my undergraduate degree has doubled since I attended in the '90s, though alternatives and options have dwindled: the only junior/community colleges in my home county have both converted to four-year degree granting institutions (colleges, not universities with graduate study options) and with that minor conversion came a drastic increase in cost per credit: a four-fold increase, as opposed to the public school's doubling.

Attending what was once a cut-rate community college now costs as much as the local overpriced private university.

As I am going back to school for a trade that only requires an associate's degree, I have chosen to relocate to an area that has a community college where my credits are about $100 per credit, as opposed to $400 per credit in my hometown.

Incidentally, in recent weeks I have had interest from a headhunter just based on the institution that granted my undergrad degree. I highly doubt that the newly-converted four-year colleges with their ramped up tuition would have the same prestige, given their history as trade schools.

In any case, attending private school seems ludicrous, unless you're talking about an Ivy League (particularly a H, Y, or P; I might balk at a Dartmouth or Brown acceptance*) or one of the big tech schools (CalTech, MIT, GT).

Have a look in your neighborhood at the crappy private colleges offering degrees and you'll see what I mean.

* Chances are, acceptance at any of these schools would mean acceptance at an equal or better public school at half the cost.

[shiny!]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Sorry for the loss of your husband. But did they defraud your husband somehow? Were the true terms of the loan hidden from him? One would think gaining a masters degree in anything (even special education) would be defacto proof that one could be assumed competent to make a loan agreement. Or are people with graduate degrees now "victims" too that need to be bailed out? Boy, we're quickly running out of scapegoats to actually pay the bills, if that's the case. Why does someone desiring to have their money repaid deserve a "FU" letter?

How hard do you think it'd be to get a student loan to get that degree if one was allowed to just not pay it back w/o repercussions? Go try to get a car loan w/o the right of repossession in the agreement. The system sucks in that it lures the careless in to a loan they can never escape. But failing to understand what you're signing on for is not their fault. I've known these loans were inescapable for years and I've never even had one.

Thank you for your questions. We didn't know the loan was inescapable. He didn't enter into the loan thinking he wouldn't be able to pay it back. He was completely uneducated about loans and at the time so was I. Looking back on it, we were both quite ignorant.

My husband taught in so-called "hardship" districts teaching "at-risk" students. Teachers who got the exact same loan as he did up to the year before he got his loan had their loans forgiven after teaching in hardship districts for a certain number of years. Teachers who took out the same loan as he did starting the year after he got his loan also had their loans forgiven, but he couldn't get his loan forgiven for doing the exact same job.

A year after he got his degree we hit a hard patch. Unfortunately this happens to a lot of people. The principal at my husband's school was a corrupt bully who abused the Special Ed students and teachers. He wanted to dismantle the Special Ed program and funnel the money elsewhere so he recommended all of the Special Ed teachers as "not fit for rehire". He was eventually overruled by the Superintendent, but the damage was done. It was in my husband's employment file and for the next three years he couldn't get a job as dogcatcher.

During that period I got cancer. We went broke paying for my treatment and eventually had to file for bankruptcy. All his debts were dischargable except for that student loan. He made a change to the payment terms to allow more time to pay, and what that did was from then on, he could never renegotiate his interest terms.

He eventually got a job at a low-paying district which started him at the low end of their pay scale in spite of his many years of experience. He worked there for five years until his program was terminated, then found work in another district. Due to circumstances beyond his control he had to switch school districts four times. Every time he'd get hired by a new district he'd have to start all over again near the bottom of the pay scale. He was paid far, far less than someone with a dual Masters degree and nearly 25 years of experience should have earned.

For 15 years we paid the minimum every month, and a little extra towards the principle when we could afford it. There were some years when we had to get extensions and reduced payments, which only meant there would be a bigger balloon at the end. They made plenty off of him!

I am not proud of having gone bankrupt, but nobody expects to have an extended period of unemployment, or family illness, or both simultaneously. For the cost of the loan, society got an incredibly gifted teacher who changed hundreds of broken lives for the better. There are a lot of kids with dyslexia that can now read and graduate from high school because of him. There are a lot of former gangbangers who had their lives turned around, who joined the military or went to trade school instead of jail, who became productive, tax-paying citizens because of a caring, dedicated teacher who went over and beyond the call of duty for them.

The burden of that debt hung over his head and caused him a lot of anguish. And in spite of his extraordinary service they would have garnished his fricken social security in his old age to get their pound of flesh. So, yeah. To answer your question, in my opinion they deserved a big FU letter.

[don]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Yeah, but 'blame the victim' is an ever-popular mentality . . ..blaming the 17-year-old entering school for taking out a loan to attend a place charging a tuition greater than median income per semester for taking on onerous debt. I guess we just see the world through a different lens.

I assume you understand I'm not blaming the high school graduate, who is bamboozled by a myriad of pressures, expectations and propaganda.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

I'd like to add that for engineering there is a movement underway that for you to obtain your professional engineer license, a requirement of having one's master's degree (or 30 credits past a bachelors degree ) will be added.

My niece is starting undergrad in a program the leads to a career in physical therapy. Her class will be the first year that a doctorate in that area will be required to achieve certification in that field.

Alot of people go right from undergrad to grad school in order to achieve this grad-level schooling right away - they're certainly not what I'd consider "seasoned" by having work experience in the real world....they still have the "gotta get a college degree or else" dictum echoing in their head.

Also - once again - the schools are clearly in support of such requirements - another case as made in the article above that the schools don't have the students interests first.

[shiny!]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

I'd like to see the dismantling of the Dept. of Education and have the gov't get out of the student loan business completely. If that were to happen, tuition prices would drop radically after a couple of years and become affordable again, just like home prices would drop if the gov't got out of the home loan business and stopped subsidizing mortgage payments.

[DaveGillie]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Knowing all this, it is hard to watch so many of my employees ecstatic about taking out maximum student loans (and mis using the money).
AND to illustrate how brain washed? kids are;
MY OWN step son signed up for big student loans EVEN AFTER I showed him and his Mom all this bad stuff that can happen AND OFFERED TO PAY HIS FULL COLLEGE costs!!!!!!!!!!
(they signed him up, hiding it from me, because wanting more "spending" money also for while away at college)

does this mean things are hopeless?

[zoog]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Interesting. I'm wondering where you got your dataset and specifically if it includes community/junior colleges that only offer associates degrees.

I know you limited it to universities vs. all else, but there are four-year degree institutions (colleges) that don't offer graduate degrees, and there are community/junior colleges that only grant two-year associates degrees.

As noted in the upper left corner of the charts, source is the Digest of Education Statistics. It is published by the National Center for Education Statistics, which is part of the US Department of Education Institute of Education Sciences.

http://nces.ed.gov/Programs/digest/

To the best of my knowledge these numbers represent all institutions that offer two-year and/or four-year degrees. Some percentage of them must also offer graduate degrees -- a typical university -- but the cost data is only for undergraduate degrees.

The table I used for costs is entitled "Average undergraduate tuition and fees and room and board rates charged for full-time students in degree-granting institutions, by type and control of institution: 1964-65 through 2009-10". I used the "All institutions" columns. The other columns are "all 4-year"; "Universities"; "Other 4-year"; and "2-year".

[cjppjc]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Knowing all this, it is hard to watch so many of my employees ecstatic about taking out maximum student loans (and mis using the money).
AND to illustrate how brain washed? kids are;
MY OWN step son signed up for big student loans EVEN AFTER I showed him and his Mom all this bad stuff that can happen AND OFFERED TO PAY HIS FULL COLLEGE costs!!!!!!!!!!
(they signed him up, hiding it from me, because wanting more "spending" money also for while away at college)

does this mean things are hopeless?

It will be hard to feel sorry for him later. You might step in at some time and help with the debt, because you wont be able to stop yourself. I happen to know alot of young kids who in addition to student loans, also have an incredable amount of credit card debt. The amounts are really staggering. Especially in light of the fact that they are working for much less money than is possible to pay down any of the principle. Good God the future does not look bright for these youngsters.

[don]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Just had a related flashback. Some of you are old enough to remember the guys that stayed in the Reserves for that extra paycheck. Many would take a few community college classes to widen the revenue stream.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

I assume you understand I'm not blaming the high school graduate, who is bamboozled by a myriad of pressures, expectations and propaganda.

Yeah, Don, I was reinforcing your position.

[brent217]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

After reading all of your posts, I am coming to the conclusion that EJ was wrong. The next bubble is not Alternative Energy. The next bubble is Education, and it has already started. The real questions of course, should we have low enough moral standards to ask them:

1. How can we profit from this situation?

Are there publically traded private eduacation facilities? How hard is it to start your own? A few quick "lobbying" efforts to local politicos and a mass media campaign to have sheeple lined up to get our "premier" education... oh ya, if we can run our own financial arm, much as the vehicle industry did, we can keep a LOT more of the profits ourselves. I wonder if any of the current large Universities have realized that yet; or if Wall streets TBTF banks have regulated all competition in this area into submission.

2. How can we help make the bubble bigger?

We can help lawmakers with this by petitioning them to formally tye the minimum wage to possession of a PhD, and have a "lower class" minimum wage for illegal aliens and the rest of the population that did not spend 7 years after high school aquring mountains of debt. We can also assist Fox and other worthy news stations in their promation of for profit education.

3. How can we make sure to ride the bubble all the way up, until the lower 90% of the population are indentured servants for life, while still finding a safe place for ourselves to live, and how do we escape to this place with our ill gotten gains?

Well, with enough media endorsements, the sheeple will likely toe the line themselves, but putting that much of the population into permanant debt while they remain armed does not make for a happy retirement country. I know Canada is following the same Education bubble philosophy, but as the housing bubble, they are a good half decade or more behind on pricing. How are European countries doing, from an Education standpoint? Any of them not involved in this bubble yet?

Sometimes I worry me, lol. After writing that I feel like I need to put my pinky finger on the corner of my mouth and do a Dr. Evil laugh!

[DaveGillie]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

It will be hard to feel sorry for him later. You might step in at some time and help with the debt, because you wont be able to stop yourself. I happen to know alot of young kids who in addition to student loans, also have an incredable amount of credit card debt. The amounts are really staggering. Especially in light of the fact that they are working for much less money than is possible to pay down any of the principle. Good God the future does not look bright for these youngsters.

well, I will NOT, but I can't stop my wife and I'm sure SHE will bail him out later if she can. Which brings up an issue that I've seen many times, PARENTS are the ones signing these kids up for these student loans (like my wife did) and just TELLING the kids "just sign here" often telling the kid that it is the PARENT getting a LOAN for the STUDENTl.
NOT TRUE, but, you know who gets stuck with the bill later. so we should not be so quick to blame the kids.

Another issue is the irresonsibilty of TEENAGERS, they talk of these student loans like it's "FREE MONEY", remember, they're 18 and not helped by commissioned student aid counserlors telling them "free/no interest while in school" MEANS "free - trust me".

[c1ue]

Re: Catherine Austin Fitts reviews 'The Student Loan Scam'

Well, with enough media endorsements, the sheeple will likely toe the line themselves, but putting that much of the population into permanant debt while they remain armed does not make for a happy retirement country. I know Canada is following the same Education bubble philosophy, but as the housing bubble, they are a good half decade or more behind on pricing. How are European countries doing, from an Education standpoint? Any of them not involved in this bubble yet?

Sometimes I worry me, lol. After writing that I feel like I need to put my pinky finger on the corner of my mouth and do a Dr. Evil laugh!

I'd say that if you take the direct involvement of government as marking the 'socialize the losses' stage, the bubble is already over, at least in the United States.

And without the corrupt exclusion of student loan debt from any type of bankruptcy discharge, it makes no sense whatsoever to attempt the same anywhere else.