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  • Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

    He has broken the national secrets law by taking photos of factories and "publicizing" government forestry records.


    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/chin...ory-57867.html

    Chinese Media Interprets Overseas Stock Fraud with Conspiracy Theory
    By Michelle Yu
    Epoch Times Staff Created: Jun 19, 2011 Last Updated: Jun 19, 2011

    An article in China's state-run media blames the accounting fraud discovered in Chinese companies listed on U.S. stock exchanges on a conspiracy by U.S. companies. A critic of the article in the Western financial press says that Chinese nationalism and patriotism are the last refuge for frauds and cheats.

    U.S. hedge funds, law firms and independent research organizations have joined forces to hunt down US-listed Chinese companies in order to gain profits from short-selling, according to an article in the China Security Journal (CSJ) that has been widely republished on the Chinese Internet.

    Hedge funds are aggressively managed investment portfolios that are generally open to no more than 100 sophisticated investors who are investing at least $250,000 or more. Such funds generally can't be withdrawn at any given time and are invested for at least one year.

    The article claims that the recent rash of accounting scandals by Chinese companies listed on the U.S. stock exchanges was a result of a premeditated and planned conspiracy that originated at the investment research firm Muddy Waters, a company that “specializes in finding Chinese companies it believes are frauds, shorts the firms' shares and publicizes the charges on its website,” according to CNBC.

    Muddy Waters has shorted five China-based companies prior to publicizing their alleged accounting frauds, causing a combined loss of almost $4.4 billion in market value from the last trading day before publication of his research through June 3, according to Bloomberg.

    Short-selling is the selling of a stock that is not owned, but borrowed from a third party. A short-seller will sell the stock in the hope that he/she will be able to buy the stock back at a lower price and pocket the difference before returning the stock to the original owner. This type of trading is considered of high risk.

    Since then a number of other Chinese companies have been exposed as accounting frauds. Trading on at least 17 Chinese stocks has been halted on NASDAQ since mid-May, and in early June Interactive Brokers banned clients from buying about 160 Chinese securities.

    The CSJ article says the incidents show that a system has been formed to systematically frame Chinese companies in order to benefit from short-selling their stocks. Muddy Waters’ founder Carson Block "uses his own Chinese speaking ability as an advantage to ‘intercept’ the overseas listing efforts of small and mid-cap Chinese companies, and sets up traps together with investing firms to gain considerable profits," the article says.

    The article implied that the Chinese companies in discussion were victimized in an unfamiliar market, and said that Muddy Waters and those that have common interest will continue to “pick bones with” even larger Chinese firms.

    The article also detailed the affected Chinese companies’ losses, but did not elaborate on these companies’ alleged fraudulent behaviors.

    Though posted all over the Chinese Internet, on most sites no reader comment is shown. However, a sharp critique of this article written by the Financial Times commentator Ye Tan seems to have received more attention.

    In the June 14 Website article, Ye criticized the CSJ report for defending frauds with conspiracy theories and by inspiring nationalistic emotions. She cited the fact that about 40 US-listed Chinese companies either admitted to accounting fraud or were halted for accounting issues since February, suggesting fraud is what will discredit Chinese stocks, not Muddy Waters.

    Muddy Waters may have its own issues, Ye says. “But what (it) did is greatly beneficial for building a new order.”

    Ye goes on to say that China’s stocks traded on exchanges outside China have been given nationalistic significance. She gives two examples in which appeals to nationalism have been used to justify large Chinese companies’ unethical business practices in dealing with foreign investors.

    In one case, Chinese star entrepreneur Shi Yuzhu encouraged Ma Yun, founder of e-commerce giant Alibaba, to be a “patriotic rascal” and force Alibaba’s foreign shareholders Yahoo and SoftBank Corp to sell shares to the Chinese state and companies. In his blog, Shi said this is to protect China’s financial security.

    Ye says Shi’s remarks reflected the view of many Chinese business leaders. “Shi Yuzhu also betrayed the most important rules in market economy: integrity and contractual constraints,” Ye says. “If everyone is allowed to break rules under the name of nationalism, … future entrepreneurs would become demagogues who cover up their dishonesty and wrong decisions with terms like patriotism and nation.”

    In the other case, Chinese company Hilead Biotechnology stole the core technology of Cathay Industrial Biotech founded in China by China-born US Citizen Liu Xiucai. When reporting on the lawsuit, Chinese media emphasized that Cathay was invested by an American, according to Ye.

    “This is an appalling suggestion that supporting Hilead is patriotic, regardless of right and wrong,” Ye says.

    Ye says at the end of the article that frauds and cheaters often use nationalism and patriotism as their last refuge. “When they hide in there, nothing seems can hurt them,” Ye says, “When the (nationalism) flag is used again and again, China’s business credibility is left riddled.”
    Last edited by touchring; June 19, 2011, 10:55 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

    This entire business is ridiculous.

    Are Chinese companies any more fraudulent in their claims than the Internet 1.0 and 2.0 darlings?

    I don't see any 'Muddy Waters' checking out Groupon's scams using planted iPhone 4s to drive traffic:

    http://agendabeijing.com/grouponlotteryscandal/
    Last edited by c1ue; June 19, 2011, 11:41 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

      Americans are still new to China stock frauds. This has been going on for Chinese stocks listed in Singapore for more than 3 years. So far, there has not been any investigation done as powerful local people are involved.

      The difference is that the fraud here is not just limited to accounting fraud but most of the cases involve embezzlement of company funds, leading to bankruptcy.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Chips_Scandals

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      • #4
        Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

        Originally posted by touchring
        The difference is that the fraud here is not just limited to accounting fraud but most of the cases involve embezzlement of company funds, leading to bankruptcy.
        Uh, what do you call Made-Off? Enron? Global Crossing?

        Just because the money stolen is via stock options as opposed to cash doesn't change anything.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
          Uh, what do you call Made-Off? Enron? Global Crossing?

          Just because the money stolen is via stock options as opposed to cash doesn't change anything.


          The "Wall Street Gang" has lost that title. One of their own just lost half a billion. There's a Chinese saying, 人外有人,天外有天。

          I have been warning about this for the past couple of years. This is only the tip of the iceberg. The total number of public companies involved in this kind of fraud may be in the hundreds.

          When people do business in China, they will assume their partner is going to cheat them. This is the way business is done. If you are a victim and you make a police report, the police will say you're stupid so you deserve it, don't waste our time, we only go after murderers.


          http://blogs.forbes.com/timworstall/...ft-in-history/

          Sino Forest: Is This the Biggest Theft in History? Jun. 20 2011 - 6:57 am | 2,177 views | 0 recommendations | 2 comments
          By TIM WORSTALL
          Things are looking bad for Sino Forest as Canada’s Globe and Mail releases the results of their investigation.
          As Christopher Failles pointed out on these pages a couple of weeks back, Sino Forest was a very risky stock to be holding. At the first sniff of accounting regularities it’s worth getting out of a position: for they always (OK, more often than not) seem to lead to the uncovering of yet more such probelms, not a simple resolution.
          Canada’s Globe and Mail newspaper has been doing some hard looking at what Sino Forest themselves say they have as timber holdings. And they don’t seem to be able to find what is claimed. They concentrated on Yunnan Province where Sino Forest claims to have purchased 200,000 heactares of standing timber from one specific company.
          That company claims that they sold only 200,000 mu of timber, not hectares. And a mu is about one fifteenth of a hectare, meaning that if true, we seem to be missing some 93% of the timber that should be there.
          Right number, wrong unit if you like.
          John Hempton ( a hedge fund manager with a great interest in such Chinese stocks) has had a go at working out, if Sino Forest is indeed a scam, quite how much money has been taken.
          There was a billion dollars raised in bonds and equity investments, insiders sold perhaps another billion dollars worth of stock meaning that:
          Bernie Madoff took money from Peter to pay Paul. The amount of money stolen for Bernie Madoff’s personal use was probably less than $300 million. Sino Forest is six times bigger and if the Muddy Waters allegations are correct is probably the largest straight theft in human history.
          It does all depend upon whether those forests exist and whether they’re owned by Sino Forest, this is still true. But if they don’t or aren’t then Hempton may well be right.
          Last edited by touchring; June 21, 2011, 12:50 AM.

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          • #6
            Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

            Originally posted by touchring View Post
            When people do business in China, they will assume their partner is going to cheat them. This is the way business is done. If you are a victim and you make a police report, the police will say you're stupid so you deserve it, don't waste our time, we only go after murderer
            This was difficult for me to get when I first lived in Taiwan years ago. The assumption is (was) the opposite in the U.S. -> Like the traffic rules on the road at the time (there were no rules), the system can work. If both parties know what to look for, commerce and traffic can flow.

            However, this is not to say you can cheat people with impunity. The same police that tell you to not to waste their time will also not waste their time tracking down the guys who broke the bastard's legs. Wasn't there some story about a factory owner who was literally ripped to pieces because he had not paid his workers?

            If Paulson and the 'ol boys network were smart, they would spend a couple of million and make examples of the executives who cooked the books.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

              Originally posted by aaron View Post
              This was difficult for me to get when I first lived in Taiwan years ago. The assumption is (was) the opposite in the U.S. -> Like the traffic rules on the road at the time (there were no rules), the system can work. If both parties know what to look for, commerce and traffic can flow.
              That's true, but I believe the culture in China also bears little similarity as compared to the culture in Taiwan. For one, the Taiwanese culture is service oriented, whereas the Chinese are completely the opposite.


              Originally posted by aaron View Post
              If Paulson and the 'ol boys network were smart, they would spend a couple of million and make examples of the executives who cooked the books.
              With some much cash to go around, the perpetrators are probably backed by the establishment - not so easy to touch them. Remember there was another case in which even the state owned bank issued official statements to the auditor to vouch for cash balance of the company - which turned out to the fake? Had Carson Block not sprung a surprise investigation report, I'm sure the company would have been able to obtain "official evidence" from the state forestry departments on their forest holdings.
              Last edited by touchring; June 21, 2011, 03:21 AM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

                Originally posted by touchring
                Bernie Madoff took money from Peter to pay Paul. The amount of money stolen for Bernie Madoff’s personal use was probably less than $300 million. Sino Forest is six times bigger and if the Muddy Waters allegations are correct is probably the largest straight theft in human history.
                I don't know who Tim Worstall is, but he is a moron in this article.

                Comparing what Made-Off stole for his own purposes in his Ponzi vs. the overall stock market capitalization losses in Sino Forest is comparing raisins and watermelons.

                Made-Off didn't do everything himself, there was an entire corporation built around this 'business'.

                The total losses in cash by all parties isn't $300M - it is multiple billions.

                For that matter - what about the stock market capitalization losses of Enron and Global Crossing?

                Enron was over $60 billion at its peak while Global Crossing was over $48 billion - and this was over 10 years ago.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

                  I would place the problem of fake companies together with the problem of fake and adulterated foods in China. It is a fact that the more well to-do Chinese do not trust local produce and will rather pay 5 times or even 10 times more for imported food products. Even vegetables can be fake, let alone processed foods - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...hinese-farming.

                  The "fakery" problem is endemic and goes beyond securities. If businessmen can sell poisonous food that may harm tens of thousands of people, children and infants, if not millions, let alone add zeros to financial figures - in comparison, this looks trivial and incurs a lot less bad karma.

                  Businessmen even compete with each other to see who can come up with a more ingenious fake product - as someone did with fake eggs - http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking...ry_620754.html

                  "Fakery" has become an art. It has gone beyond mere profits. There's even a book written on it, "The Art of Cheating" - http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A...81%93%E3%80%8B



                  Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                  I don't know who Tim Worstall is, but he is a moron in this article.

                  Comparing what Made-Off stole for his own purposes in his Ponzi vs. the overall stock market capitalization losses in Sino Forest is comparing raisins and watermelons.

                  Made-Off didn't do everything himself, there was an entire corporation built around this 'business'.

                  The total losses in cash by all parties isn't $300M - it is multiple billions.

                  For that matter - what about the stock market capitalization losses of Enron and Global Crossing?

                  Enron was over $60 billion at its peak while Global Crossing was over $48 billion - and this was over 10 years ago.
                  Last edited by touchring; June 21, 2011, 10:27 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

                    Originally posted by touchring View Post
                    I
                    "Fakery" has become an art. It has gone beyond mere profits. There's even a book written on it, "The Art of Cheating" - http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E3%80%8A...81%93%E3%80%8B
                    In China they have fake businesses, in the West we have regulators to eliminate that sort of thing. But the regulators are fake.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Has the Chinese government marked Carson Block?

                      Originally posted by unlucky View Post
                      In China they have fake businesses, in the West we have regulators to eliminate that sort of thing. But the regulators are fake.

                      I don't know a country where regulators are actually real - http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/wo...a/14china.html

                      The difference between a "democratic" government with "free press", and an authoritarian government that has a state propaganda mouthpiece is that for the latter, it takes a much longer time to find out if the regulators are not doing their job.

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