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  • RE: Worse Ever?

    Multiple sets of indicators are clearly showing that the housing market is entering a second winter. Home prices are inching closer to cycle lows and indicators of housing distress are rampant throughout the country. Home prices during the troubling five years of 1928 through 1933 saw a decline of 25.9 percent nationwide and this was during the Great Depression. The latest Case-Shiller data shows that home prices in the 20 City and 10 City composite measures are down by 32 percent from their 2006 peak. This is now nominally the worst housing correction since the Great Depression. The continuing correction in housing is economically challenging middle class households in ways vastly different from those during the Great Depression. What is troubling about the new cycle lows is that the liquidity injected into the banking system by the Federal Reserve simply delayed the inevitable while diverting precious resources to a broken financial system. The painful lesson of the new reality is that household income, the gas in the engine, is simply too low to support prices even at today’s new lower levels.

    The Great Housing Crash of 2006

    Source: Economist


    Many were early to call a bottom in the housing market last year. It all varied on what data you were looking at. It was true that the home buyer tax credits and the Federal Reserve pushing mortgage rates lower created an artificial stimulus that did revive the market briefly. You should ask yourself what these actions covered. The home buyer tax credits and the Fed intervening made home purchasing cheaper only because an artificial floor was temporarily placed. Home prices for many years have not been dictated by the market in the sense of an open transparent market where sellers and buyers compete for goods in a somewhat balanced system. Home prices have so many artificial carrots and glistening bells and whistles that the real price is hard to ascertain. Imagine the government stepping in and offering a giant tax credit for buying SUVs. It is logical to assume that at least initially, sales will increase as the real price of the vehicle is pushed lower. Yet in the end market prices have to reflect more steady measures. As the tax credit evaporated and the Federal Reserve’s mortgage buying spree ended, the reality was American households simply do not have the income to support current prices. You can see the recent up and down here:





    Home prices have been falling steadily since the summer of 2010. The fact that we still have close to 7,000,000 homes in the shadow inventory tells us that we still have a long way to go before any normal housing market is restored. This by far is the worst housing collapse ever and it is still ongoing. This isn’t some closed chapter in our history books. We are still experiencing the actual correction. You can see from the above charts and gather a sense of how deep this correction is. Or maybe this chart can help:


    Source: Economy.com


    Keep in mind the above chart is inflation adjusted while the 25.9 percent correction is based on nominal levels. No matter how you slice this correction it is the worst on record. To get closer to the baseline prices would need to fall 43 percent from the 2006 peak. A number that seemed preposterous only a few years ago is now within touching distance.


    Homeownership increase causes housing correction more widespread pain

    Source: Census


    When the Great Depression hit roughly 46 percent of Americans owned their home. Most of the mortgage debt was modest although on much shorter balloon payment deadlines that were exacerbated by the collapse. When the bubble unfolded in our current crisis nearly 70 percent of Americans were homeowners with massive amounts of mortgage debt. Most Americans derive their net worth from their home. So a collapse in housing values has sent a ripple through the balance sheets of the vast majority of Americans. Even if you are part of the one-third of homeowners with no mortgage your home values just cratered 32 percent on a nationwide basis. Depending on where you live this could be much worse or better. However it is likely you have lost a good amount of housing equity.


    The problem itself isn’t so much that homeownership shot up to 70 percent but how it was financed. As many of you are well aware in the last decade U.S. median household growth was non-existent. Families are earning what they did going back to the late 1990s. Yet the cost of a gallon of gas is now up over $4 in many areas, local and state governments are raising taxes for dwindling budgets, medical care costs are soaring, and the cost to feed your family is also sky high. So the fact that home prices rose in light of all of this is a stunning reflection of the mania we have lived through. There will be books written on the insanity that is the U.S. housing market and history will not look favorably on many of our actions but the truth is history is still being written.


    The adjustment in the housing market is still fluid and dynamic. I recall reading an article in the summer of 2009 showing some prescient insight into the market. In the article this chart was produced:



    Source: Moody’s
    “(Moody’s) A number of indicators of housing have bottomed, and there are tantalizing signs that the descent in house prices is at least moderating. When all is said and done, this housing correction, easily the worst on record for the U.S., will see the national Case-Shiller® house price index fall nearly 40% from its 2006 peak. The correction will be not only deep but also lengthy, with the U.S. price index bottoming in the second quarter of 2010. The national price level will not regain its 2006 high until 2020, a peak-to-peak housing cycle of 14 years. Regions will vary substantially, however, with areas that saw prices rise most taking the longest to return.”
    What is interesting is that the market did hit a bottom early in 2010. Yet what wasn’t accounted for was the double-dip in the housing market which is what we are now clearly in. The enormous backlog of shadow inventory will keep a steady stream of lower priced properties for years to come. I also find it interesting that the above chart is able to predict 12 years out and that California will see peak levels again in 2023. Frankly, I think projections going out more than 3 years for housing prices in this current market is similar to flipping a coin since all we can say with certainty is that home prices cannot go up with no significant income changes. People keep asking about certain financial ratios about when it would make sense to buy. Unfortunately we now live in a much more challenging financial world. The metrics now have to change completely. We are used to paying very little for food and fuel in relation to total household income. Other countries are used to paying more:



    As we all know the cost of food is and has been going up yet income has remained stagnant or has dropped. The amount that can be spent on housing by default decreases. The Fed has essentially focused on the borrowing side of the equation by trying to lower rates to adjust to this new lower income world. This artificial intervention by the Federal Reserve has harmed most Americans while favoring investment banks around the country who really are the only sector who benefit from inflated housing costs. Lower home prices are actually beneficial to the one-third that rent. The one-third that own but have no mortgage are likely to not change their spending habits. It is the two-third that own and have a mortgage that are largely in play. If people purchase carefully and actually treat a home as a place to live, then if prices dipped another 20 percent it would not matter. The narrative that home prices need support is largely a banking propaganda piece trying to keep inflated balance sheets propped up.


    As more and more disposable income is taken up by items outside of housing the amount of money Americans can finance for purchasing a home dwindles. This is why the demand for lower priced homes is healthy while markets where jumbo loans are needed are basically groveling at the feet of the government for more subsidies to keep prices inflated. Why would these supposedly rich areas need subsidies? What is it to the rich family to pay a little more from their healthy income to a house payment? The answer is that these markets are largely giant shell games where cars are leased and jumbo mortgages reign supreme. No doubt there are very wealthy enclaves with real solid incomes but you have other areas like Culver City or Pasadena where much of the economy is a paper tiger. You have households making $100,000 to $150,000 a year living as if they made $300,000 and above.


    What can we learn from the Great Depression housing market and the one we are currently living in? First, many of the safety nets absent from the Great Depression like giant handouts to banks, food stamps, unemployment insurance, the FDIC, and stronger government intervention have made things look much better. Yet this is like a storm ravaging your property and you being happy that you have insurance. Sure, the place is covered but someone is still going to pay for the cost. I have few qualms about unemployment insurance or even food assistance since these keep people from absolute destitute situations and in terms of costs, are relatively low. For example $64 billion was paid out in 2010 to 40,000,000 families through food assistance. This money is spent back into the economy immediately. To put this in perspective look at the absolute failure of the home buyer tax credit:
    “(WSJ) The credit wasn’t great for taxpayers, either. IRS says it paid $26 billion in home buyer credits in 2009 and 2010, enough to cover the maximum $8,000 credit for more than 3 million buyers. (It says at least $513 million went for fraudulent claims. Some claimants hadn’t bought houses. Some filed twice. Some were under age 18 or incarcerated.)”
    Let us not forget about the multi-trillion dollar elephant in the room regarding the bailouts to the unworthy and financially broken financial system. The fact that most Americans have their wealth in housing and this was turned into a speculative casino by Wall Street is incredibly irresponsible. The reality of the new home price lows should tell you really who the bailouts were targeted for.

    In the end home prices will continue to decline simply because no income growth has shown up in over a decade. Even if we do see income growth, we have to measure this with other rising costs like food and fuel. In the end, you can’t eat your house and maybe this is why the American Dream is now being redefined.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/e...at-depression/

  • #2
    Re: Worse Ever?

    Originally posted by don View Post

    Source: Economy.com
    I have seen this chart often, but this is still the 2009 version forecasted to 2010. Is there an updated version to 2011?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Worse Ever?

      Originally posted by brent217 View Post
      I have seen this chart often, but this is still the 2009 version forecasted to 2010. Is there an updated version to 2011?
      Here's a website to track prices in all major cities compared to the median price (which ideally tracks inflation) : http://www.housingbubblebust.com/ (under FHFA appreciation tracker box on left)

      Updated to Q4 2010.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Worse Ever?

        Originally posted by photoncounter View Post
        Here's a website to track prices in all major cities compared to the median price (which ideally tracks inflation) : http://www.housingbubblebust.com/ (under FHFA appreciation tracker box on left)

        Updated to Q4 2010.
        original itulip housing charts vs 'yeh, i knew that... me too' charts...

        from 2005: 15 yrs reversion 2005 - 2020




        detailed 2007 update... $12 trillion loss... $7 trillion by 2011...



        aug 2009 vs apr 2011 update...



        zillow sez...



        in 2005... 'nuts, stupid, pessimist, no one has a crystal ball'

        in 2011, 'yeh, i knew that'

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Worse Ever?

          Originally posted by metalman View Post
          original itulip housing charts vs 'yeh, i knew that... me too' charts...

          in 2005... 'nuts, stupid, pessimist, no one has a crystal ball'

          in 2011, 'yeh, i knew that'
          Thanks for posting. I remember all of them, just lazy in searching. Here's the latest update from our resident housing expert, Zoog:

          http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...90527#poststop

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Worse Ever?

            Originally posted by photoncounter View Post
            Thanks for posting. I remember all of them, just lazy in searching. Here's the latest update from our resident housing expert, Zoog:

            http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...90527#poststop
            And don't forget - even if it's not as bad as the chart indicates - the Alt-A and Option ARM storm's a-commin'.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Worse Ever?

              Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
              And don't forget - even if it's not as bad as the chart indicates - the Alt-A and Option ARM storm's a-commin'.

              Staved off by ZIRP on the adjustables.

              In related news, with housing closed off as a source of new debt, consumers prioritize what's left, their credit cards (another key component of ZIRP's "dollar carry trade". Free money for the TBTFs, who reciprocate with Treasury buys - rewarding in itself - with the real sugar in speculation and 28% CC rates. Financial engineering at its best!)

              Mortgages no longer top priority





              Source: TransUnion. THE WASHINGTON POST. Published on May 13, 2011

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Worse Ever?

                More than ever, location will play the biggest role in how RE does. All those marginal areas, sold on " you get more for the money here", may fall by the wayside.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Worse Ever?

                  Thanks Metalman. I still am not sure about future direction in housing though. The American government keeps coming up with little programs the temporarily halt the housing decline, and at the same time, the Fed/Treasury is pouring new money into the system, devaluing all the current money (and therefore assets like RE that are valued in current money). I am wondering if the money printing, which isn't really tracked well by inflation, will over time tend to force house prices to a higher median.

                  What we need is a case shiller index for the last 20 years with average house prices measured in ounces of gold, lol.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Worse Ever?

                    Originally posted by brent217
                    I am wondering if the money printing, which isn't really tracked well by inflation, will over time tend to force house prices to a higher median.
                    It sure didn't during the Weimar hyperinflation...

                    http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...-Weimar-charts

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Worse Ever?

                      Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                      It sure didn't during the Weimar hyperinflation...

                      http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...-Weimar-charts
                      Yeah, at some point, somebody has to rent / buy housing. 'Inflation - Wage Inflation != RE inflation' - unless there is heavy intervention.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Worse Ever?

                        Wage inflation is among the cruelest wealth deceptions.

                        (How often have you had to suffer through an old-timer telling you what a car or a house or an apple cost in the "old daze". A lifetime of conditioning . . . . )

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Worse Ever?

                          Originally posted by photoncounter View Post
                          Thanks for posting. I remember all of them, just lazy in searching. Here's the latest update from our resident housing expert, Zoog:

                          http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...90527#poststop
                          Uh, well you know what an expert is: ex is a has-been and spurt is a drip under pressure.

                          The Q1 national Case-Shiller index will come out at the end of this month. The individual city series for February are mixed, some have dropped lower, others have pulled back. The 10-city and 20-city series have both recovered somewhat. So the Q1 national number may be relatively flat. I had expected a clear decline. I still think we will miss the usual late-spring / summer bounce this year, but that depends a lot on what else is going on in the economy. Over the longer term, there is certainly more downside to go, as EJ indicated in the itulip charts.

                          Originally posted by dcarrigg View Post
                          And don't forget - even if it's not as bad as the chart indicates - the Alt-A and Option ARM storm's a-commin'.

                          Originally posted by don View Post
                          Staved off by ZIRP on the adjustables...
                          Slowed down, at any rate. I haven't seen an updated Credit Suisse chart yet this year but here is one from March 2011. Unfortunately the newer chart shows a shorter range of years, so it can be difficult to make comparisons. But the basic change is that the resets / recasts originally predicted for 2010 and 2011 are now spread out through 2010, 2011, and 2012.


                          Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                          More than ever, location will play the biggest role in how RE does. All those marginal areas, sold on " you get more for the money here", may fall by the wayside.
                          And this why we have to be cautious about reading too much into a national housing number or a few sample cities. EJ has said on several occasions, in the select area anyway, that regional incomes and interest rates are the most important factors for housing prices. To that I add rent / buy ratios. Interest rates are largely determined at a national scale, but local and regional incomes can vary considerably depending on how the local economy is handling the global economic upheaval.

                          Originally posted by brent217 View Post
                          Thanks Metalman. I still am not sure about future direction in housing though. The American government keeps coming up with little programs the temporarily halt the housing decline, and at the same time, the Fed/Treasury is pouring new money into the system, devaluing all the current money (and therefore assets like RE that are valued in current money). I am wondering if the money printing, which isn't really tracked well by inflation, will over time tend to force house prices to a higher median.

                          What we need is a case shiller index for the last 20 years with average house prices measured in ounces of gold, lol.
                          It usually takes a long time for wages to creep up in response to inflation. Given a long enough period of high inflation, we could see domestic wage inflation which might then put a relatively higher floor under housing prices. But if the Fed raises interest rates to combat the ever-rising inflation, though, that could very well push housing prices even lower. EJ talks about these issues in a select article here, which is where the April 2011 forecast chart comes from.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Worse Ever?

                            And this why we have to be cautious about reading too much into a national housing number or a few sample cities. EJ has said on several occasions, in the select area anyway, that regional incomes and interest rates are the most important factors for housing prices. To that I add rent / buy ratios. Interest rates are largely determined at a national scale, but local and regional incomes can vary considerably depending on how the local economy is handling the global economic upheaval.
                            My area is one of the lucky ones that is doing okay. My wife is a teacher and she was just telling me how our county is adding 1200 students next year, despite the recession. Her school will have to add trailers next year, for the first time.

                            I guess it makes sense. People can afford to have their pick, not just take what is available like during better times. My neighborhood is down about 10% from what I can tell. But you'd better have the home in good condition and have a basement. Neglected homes bring steep discounts in today's market.

                            On a side note: I got called out to inspect the wiring on a HUD home. The buyer wanted a second opinion. Seems the electrician the FEDs normally use found a "bad line", (whatever that means). They could not get him to elaborate. Just no response to their calls to clarify. Well nothing was wrong with that house's wiring. My guess is they've been socking it to HUD with phony repair estimates for a while. It would be so easy to do. Anyway, this home is in the same general area as mine but more rural. He said he's paying $140,000 for a home that used to sell for $200k. 30% off but the house needed some cosmetic work. Still a lot of house for the money. 2800 sq ft.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Worse Ever?

                              Providing power for those portables is a nice gig. I did a bunch of those for Travis Unified back in the daze. Hope you get some!

                              Comment

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