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  • Its what we do, not what we say

    Or why neo-liberal economics - based on the idea of 'efficient markets' - is crap.

    http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...eriment-money/

    When faced with a thorny moral dilemma, what people say they would do and what people actually do are two very different things, a new study finds. In a hypothetical scenario, most people said they would never subject another person to a painful electric shock, just to make a little bit of money.

    But for people given a real-world choice, the sparks flew.


    The results, presented April 4 at the annual meeting of the Cognitive Neuroscience Society, serve as a reminder that hypothetical scenarios don’t capture the complexities of real decisions.

    Morality studies in the lab almost always rely on asking participants to imagine how they’d behave in a certain situation, study coauthor Oriel FeldmanHall of Cambridge University said in her presentation. But these imagined situations are missing teeth: “Whatever you choose, it’s not going to happen,” she said.

    But in FeldmanHall’s study, things actually happened. “There are real shocks and real money on the table,” she said. Subjects lying in an MRI scanner were given a choice: Either administer a painful electric shock to a person in another room and make one British pound (a little over a dollar and a half), or spare the other person the shock and forgo the money. Shocks were priced in a graded manner, so that the subject would earn less money for a light shock, and earn the whole pound for a severe shock. This same choice was given 20 times, and the person in the brain scanner could see a video of either the shockee’s hand jerk or both the hand jerk and the face grimace. (Although these shocks were real, they were pre-recorded.)

    When researchers gave a separate group of people a purely hypothetical choice, about 64 percent said they wouldn’t ever deliver a shock — even a mild one — for money. Overall, people hypothetically judging what their actions would be netted only about four pounds on average.

    But when there was cold, hard money involved, the data changed. A lot. A whopping 96 percent of people in the scanner chose to administer shocks for cash. “Three times as much money was kept in the real task,” FeldmanHall said. When participants saw only the hand of the person jerk as it got shocked, they chose to walk away with an “astonishing” 15.77 pounds on average out of a possible 20-pound windfall. The number dipped when participants saw both the hand and the face of the person receiving the shock: In these cases, people made off with an average of 11.55 pounds.

    People grappling with the real moral dilemma — as opposed to people who had to choose in a hypothetical situation — had heightened activity in parts of the insula, a brain center thought to be involved in emotion, the study shows. FeldmanHall said that insula activity might represent a sort of visceral tension that’s going on in the body as a person pits the desire for money against the desire to not hurt someone. These visceral conflicts within a person seem to be missing in experiments with no real stakes, she said.

    “My initial response is it’s a really Milgram-esque experiment, harkening back to where people are induced to do something bad to someone else,” said cognitive neuroscientist Tor Wager of the University of Colorado at Boulder.

    Stanley Milgram, a Yale psychologist, famously compelled college students to administer painful electrical shocks to others.

    Even though the findings are “a little bit chilling,” Wager says, “it’s important to know.” These kinds of studies can help scientists figure out how the brain dictates moral behavior. “There’s a real neuroscientific interest now in understanding the basis of compassion,” Wager says. “That’s something we are just starting to address scientifically, but it’s a critical frontier because it has such an impact on human life.”

  • #2
    Re: Its what we do, not what we say

    it works for a few . . . .


    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Its what we do, not what we say

      But this is surely why we created the whole idea and function of Law?

      The problem is not the actions of a few miscreants, it is the failure of the function of the law.

      If the law prescribes an action against; then any such action will, inevitably, reduce the incidence of lawlessness. But if the miscreants see they can get away with lawlessness, then there will, inevitably; be an increase.

      We simply need to apply the law as it was originally intended.

      I must add that I in no way advocate the historical solutions proposed in the video above.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Its what we do, not what we say

        Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
        But this is surely why we created the whole idea and function of Law?

        The problem is not the actions of a few miscreants, it is the failure of the function of the law.

        If the law prescribes an action against; then any such action will, inevitably, reduce the incidence of lawlessness. But if the miscreants see they can get away with lawlessness, then there will, inevitably; be an increase.

        We simply need to apply the law as it was originally intended.

        I must add that I in no way advocate the historical solutions proposed in the video above.
        Yup. The purpose of a locked door is to help an honest person stay honest. It never stops a diligent and dedicated scoundrel.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Its what we do, not what we say

          In my teens I was working in the trades. Every night the men would lock up their tool boxes on the work benches. I was told that was "to keep an honest man honest".

          At the highest level of FIRE sociopathic personalities are a given. You produce, for yourself and for your party. The pressure is constant. And you achieve that primarily by fraud and deception. (a great video addressing this aspect of FIRE was posted on the 'tulip's front page a while back - wish I could have posted it instead. Maybe Metal Man can.)

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Its what we do, not what we say

            This article reminds me of a piece Joseph Sobran wrote many years ago.

            Sobran said, "Most of the people who work for the U. S. government would be willing to work for any government. Had they been French in 1940 they would have worked
            for Vichy and would most likely have seen it their duty to assist in rounding up the Jews. And had they worked for the Roman government they would have willingly walked
            together down to the coliseum to see the Christians fed to lions".

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Its what we do, not what we say

              Originally posted by c1ue View Post
              Or why neo-liberal economics - based on the idea of 'efficient markets' - is crap.

              http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...eriment-money/
              And what was the incentive to receive a shock? The complexity of choice is not exclusive to one side of any transaction.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                Originally posted by Ghent12
                And what was the incentive to receive a shock? The complexity of choice is not exclusive to one side of any transaction.
                No incentive except contributing to the scientific understanding of human behavior. Note that the shocks were not actually real time - the pictures displayed were recordings.

                Of course the people being tested didn't know that....

                Other interesting points: seeing someone's face had a measurable impact on 'altruism'.

                Note the issue here isn't honesty - it is whether verbalized altruistic leanings represent actual behavior.

                The verdict? Bzzzzzt!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                  Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                  No incentive except contributing to the scientific understanding of human behavior. Note that the shocks were not actually real time - the pictures displayed were recordings.

                  Of course the people being tested didn't know that....

                  Other interesting points: seeing someone's face had a measurable impact on 'altruism'.

                  Note the issue here isn't honesty - it is whether verbalized altruistic leanings represent actual behavior.

                  The verdict? Bzzzzzt!
                  That being the face of the shockee.

                  I would guess that the shockers who smiled gleefully and pressed the button more than once
                  were referred to the Internal Revenue Service as excellent prospects for mid-level management.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                    Many religions consider the attitude toward money as often more indicative of a person's true worth than the mere possession of it. The same might be even more true for societies. This explains why modern societies, many of whose members are obsessed with a single-minded quest for material wealth, are constantly faced with recurring crises of values. The pursuit of maximization of wealth leads inevitably to the betrayal of human values that would otherwise forbid unconscionable exploitation of and impersonal disregard for others.

                    Edward Luttwak, military strategist and historian, explains in his book Turbo Capitalism, Super-winners are not only respected and admired for what they do but also for what they know, or rather for what it is assumed they must know. They are often asked to pronounce on the great questions of the day, even those far removed from their fields of competence. During 1997, for example, both the champion software marketeer Bill Gates and the champion currency speculator George Soros were constantly and respectfully cited in the American media on a great variety of subjects, including public education and the control of narcotics. Their interviewers assumed as a matter of course that the extent of their wisdom corresponds to the size of their incomes. Far from being condemned for greed, winners are held in the highest regard, and the greatest winners of all have almost an odor of sanctity.

                    Henry C. K. Liu on Wealth & Money

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                      Super-winners are not only respected and admired for what they do but also for what they know, or rather for what it is assumed they must know. They are often asked to pronounce on the great questions of the day, even those far removed from their fields of competence. During 1997, for example, both the champion software marketeer Bill Gates and the champion currency speculator George Soros were constantly and respectfully cited in the American media on a great variety of subjects, including public education and the control of narcotics.
                      I wonder if this is true of all cultures or peculiar to American culture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                        The problem relates to a very few that have access to a paid for PR operation. If you control the PR then you are "untouchable" and can do as you will.

                        Personally I place the blame at the feet of newspapers and more modern media, (always inside their organisations), with journalists that place too high a value on such PR and not enough on old fashioned investigative journalism.

                        If we made it unlawful for any government department to have an internal PR department; that would be a great start to a change in direction.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                          Originally posted by Chris Coles View Post
                          If the law prescribes an action against; then any such action will, inevitably, reduce the incidence of lawlessness. But if the miscreants see they can get away with lawlessness, then there will, inevitably; be an increase.
                          This is true for premeditated crimes like financial crimes, not so much for crimes of passion; so is applicable here. Premeditation is an important consideration in whether punishment is effective for crime.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                            Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                            Or why neo-liberal economics - based on the idea of 'efficient markets' - is crap.

                            http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...eriment-money/
                            I am surprised they got the green light to do this experiment. After Milgram's obedience experiments and Zimbardo's prison experiment, many of the participants ended up with depression and psych issues from the mental anguish of their decisions. I'm not sure how different this is than those two experiments except that instead of only obdience to authority being a factor, a money incentive is involved. The brain scans are interesting and useful. However, proceeding down this research path is not healthy. An academic mileau that condones research that involves what is essentailly low level mental torture for the subjects (those who give out the shocks) is disturbing. The results of Milgrams experiment where a total shock, with international ramifications, especially in light of the Nuremberg trials and questions of complicity of the German people in the WWII genocide. No one thought the subjects would comply with the shocks to the extent they did (willfully escalating shocks to the XXX level to a comatose "learner" on the other side of the wall.) The ramifications could be excused because they were not anticipated at all. I always thought Zimbardos experiment was on the edge of being inappropriate because it was somewhat clearer by that time what kind of results might occur. I hope this isn't a reflection of where we are going academically. It has eery parallels to what is happening on a broader societal level.

                            Also, one of the groups who was less likely to shock in Milgrams experiment were...electricians. They are more familiar with the health consequences of electric shock, hence more reticence to pull the lever. This has relevance for a finacial world which has become more socially and culturally insulated from the poor and even middle class.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Its what we do, not what we say

                              Originally posted by Jay
                              I am surprised they got the green light to do this experiment.
                              This may be in fact why the actual shocks were replays of a recorded video as opposed to real.

                              I assumed, though in fact this might not have happened, that the testees were informed of this after the experiment.

                              The experiment is in fact a variation of a fairly well known torture: wiring 2 related people, say father and son, to an apparatus where one person is always going to get shocked, but which one is determined by choice.

                              The torture subject is the one given the choice.

                              In reality, the other person pretty much always dies - and in doing so completely wrecks the torture subject's psychology because now the subject knows they'll do anything to survive.

                              Not all knowledge is used for good.

                              Comment

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