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  • Go To School, Get Ahead

    and its all recourse . . . of course


    Traci Joyce, who graduated from California Culinary Academy $130,000 in debt, handles pizza dough at Zachary's Chicago Pizza in San Ramon - where she worked before cooking school.


    Joyce, who worked in restaurants for 15 years and dreamed of being a chef, said she was sold by the CCA's program the moment she walked into the admissions office.

    She said the admissions people made her feel like she had a good chance of becoming an executive chef because of the school's status in the industry.
    But the only jobs she landed were positions at a catering company and a butcher shop. "I was making sandwiches," she said.

    Finally she got her job back at Zachary's Chicago Pizza, but even that was a demotion. Before culinary school she was a manager, now she works in the kitchen.
    "If I could go back and change this, I never would have done it," she said. "The most embarrassing part is what a farce I feel like. My friends and family introduce me as a chef. I want to say, 'Yeah, right. I make pizzas.' "


    For the next 20 years, Matt Foist will be paying off his $46,000 in cooking-school loans, and all he says he has to show for it is a useless chef's diploma, a nice set of knives - but no job.

    He said he'd be lucky to make $15 an hour in the culinary world, even though the school told him he would land jobs with annual salaries of $45,000. So he's gone back to his software career.

    The 46-year-old, who believes he was scammed by San Francisco's California Culinary Academy, is one of the representatives of a class-action lawsuit in which a $40 million settlement offer from the cooking school is pending.

    As part of the settlement, the 8,500 students who attended the academy from 2003 through 2008 were notified last month that they could be eligible for rebates of up to $20,000 each. Tuition prices are typically $46,000 for a 12-month program and an additional three months of on-the-job training.

    A hearing to approve the settlement is scheduled for Aug. 22.

    In addition, Career Education Corp., the parent company of CCA (it also owns 15 other vocational colleges, including the Texas Culinary Academy and Le Cordon Bleu), has agreed to eat $1.8 million in student debt.

    But for many, it's not enough. They say the dream they were sold to be high-paid chefs was bogus. And now they're faced with enormous student loans to pay off - some in excess of $100,000, after deferrals and interest accruals.

    "By the end I'd realized I had the wool pulled over my eyes," Foist said. "I feel like it was a huge waste of time and a huge waste of money. And I'm one of the lucky ones who had a job to go back to."

    According to the suit, students and lawyers, the school misrepresented its 98 percent job placement rate, exaggerated its prestige in the industry and suggested that it had a selective qualifying process.

    "This rate is a lie," the suit states in regards to the school's placement rate. "The placement statistics included non-professional entry level jobs like prep cooks, $8-$12 an hour line cooks and Starbucks baristas. That culinary degree was not a pre-requisite or even relevant for many of the included jobs."

    Ray Gallo, the lead plaintiff's attorney on the case, said, "In my opinion, very few of the class members would have bought what CCA was selling if they had the facts that I have today."


    CCA is not the first for-profit school to come under scrutiny. There are 2,000 private vocational schools, ranging from psychology and cosmetology to business administration and medical training, receiving $24 billion in federal money each year, according to government oversight investigations conducted last year.


    At four of the colleges, administrators encouraged the undercover applicant to falsify his or her financial aid forms to qualify for federal aid. In one case the admissions representative told an applicant to fraudulently omit $250,000 in savings, according to the report.

    Often, the schools target the most vulnerable segment of the population, said Robert Mills, another attorney representing the CCA plaintiffs. In the case of the Culinary Academy, many of the students were children of immigrants, who had family members co-sign for their loans thinking that they'd get lucrative jobs after graduation, he said.

    Traci Joyce, who graduated from CCA in 2003, said she'll carry her $130,000 debt to her grave.

    "This is the elephant I sleep next to every night," the 40-year-old said. "I can't get rid of it even if I declare bankruptcy. Student loans are exempt. So it's ruined my credit, kept me from buying a house and putting money aside for my retirement."

    CEC denies the allegations and agreed to settle the suit only because it was "distracting to our mission and extraordinarily expensive to litigate," Mark Spencer, a spokesman for the company, said in a statement.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MN4G1J8PRR.DTL

  • #2
    Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

    I don't know the field but $46k for 12 months of cooking school sounds excessive.

    I've seen a number of these stories. I didn't really use my first four years of college when working 10 years in construction as I didn't sign off on anything. Back to school I trained for another year or two so I could cut up articles to file for a local newspaper's library (back in the dawn of computers) and even write a few. So probably I didn't need college for that though the degree did open that low paying door which would later lead to a mostly rewarding 20 years at an international publishing company.

    I'm now considering Social Work for my 50s-70s or 80s & 90s if I don't wind up demented by then. The field requires a degree to practice and does not pay much money in return. A Bachelor's might bring $30-50k. A Master's maybe $40-60kplus or more for a private counsel/consulting. It is a difficult field to enter; at the lower level, my school allows only 20something new students per year and if you don't make the cut you can't reapply the following semester, rather you must wait another full year. The Master's program is slightly less competitive because there are less students. I just A'ced a required course so hopefully I'm on my way to spending $40k in two years so I can earn $50k a year. My math never was very good. But life (and opportunity) is not always just about numbers.

    And you never know where a pizza today will bring you tomorrow.
    Last edited by housingcrashsurvivor; May 03, 2011, 05:06 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

      I admire your goal orientation. On the investment dollars, $40k for a $50k job, assuming you get one in 2 years and they still pay as much. Are you paying your tuition out of pocket or are you making FIRE's day? Things could get expensive. Hope you have a clear idea what the ramifications are. Enjoying one's work is a key to happiness. Getting sheared around the clock isn't.

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      • #4
        Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

        went to law school in 91; school said in writing 95% employment rate within 6 months of graduation, at an average of $65k per year. pushed student loans real hard.

        reality: less than 50% of my class was employed within 12 months of graduation, at an average salary I can say with a fair degree of confidence was around $40k.

        there were some changes in market conditions in the early 90's, but their numbers were sheer fraud.

        that $110k in student loans didnt look so good then. not only not bankruptable, but if you are delinquent they pull your law license.

        oh yeah, and it takes about $2k per year in fees to keep your license, and certainly another $2k a year to meet the minimum dress code too.

        average hours worked per year: over 2500.

        sexy huh? making $40k per year, with $6k in student loan payments, $4k in minimum fees, and

        thank god I managed to eek out a pretty successful career so far, can't complain, but wow...

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        • #5
          Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

          My wife had a friend who got sucked into the Culinary school scam. Now this "Chef" eeks out a meager living catering parties for old ladies. The jobs she was able to land after graduation rarely paid more than $12 hour. I've talked to others with the same story. Apparently that is a fairly low paying field unless you are really really good?

          People out there. You must first make sure the pay in the industry you choose to pursue justifies the cost of the education. Otherwise its an uphill battle. If just doing what you loved was enough I'd be a bikini contest judge or a food taster. Perhaps the biggest sales job they've done is convince people this doesn't matter.

          On the other hand, some today want to jump right out of school and make the big bucks. In most fields you still have some dues to pay first. Some seem to think they can buy their way around this with a formal education.

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          • #6
            Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

            Not so sure I'm goal oriented or just trying to keep life interesting. Think I've decided against drinking myself to death in some bar in Pattaya or spending the next 40 years meditating in a monastery. I considered joining the Peace Corp until realizing I've been working for more than 30 years yet still haven't many skills so thought I'd do another 10-year career in a helping field, maybe teaching or social work, then do a stint as an elder volunteer.

            Many of the social work jobs are in medical and mental health so the Master level jobs pay not great but pretty well. At that level I could also get a school social worker's position (I'm gonna be the truancy officer on the Little Rascals) paying around $40k or so for 10 months' work. But I might also enjoy a teacher's job, making $36k/year or whatever. I don't spend a lot of money so just would like to pay my bills. Will be signing up to do substitute work to see if I like it. Wouldn't require more school to teach the younger grades, just my existing degree & state certification.

            Getting itchy to get back to work so might do school part time which then brings out of pocket (rather than out of savings) even lower. Either way, no student loans for me this time around. Bought two houses cash (one to live in and to rent a room out and one for income) right near university (tenant population no prob) so I could retrain if need be. Also good employment base here (schools, university, healthcare facilities, etc).

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            • #7
              Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

              Glad to hear you're not going into debt to move on in your life.

              (Is an open bar tab in Pattaya considered a tribute to FIRE )

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              • #8
                Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                Only if you die drinking without having first paid up (as I'm no longer young enough to have someone subsidize my toxicity). But yeah, I had saved for quite a few years so I could buy my first house too. Silly me.

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                • #9
                  Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                  Originally posted by cbr View Post
                  went to law school in 91; school said in writing 95% employment rate within 6 months of graduation, at an average of $65k per year. pushed student loans real hard.

                  reality: less than 50% of my class was employed within 12 months of graduation, at an average salary I can say with a fair degree of confidence was around $40k.

                  there were some changes in market conditions in the early 90's, but their numbers were sheer fraud.

                  that $110k in student loans didnt look so good then. not only not bankruptable, but if you are delinquent they pull your law license.

                  oh yeah, and it takes about $2k per year in fees to keep your license, and certainly another $2k a year to meet the minimum dress code too.

                  average hours worked per year: over 2500.

                  sexy huh? making $40k per year, with $6k in student loan payments, $4k in minimum fees, and

                  thank god I managed to eek out a pretty successful career so far, can't complain, but wow...
                  I think that the situation in the law schools will resolve itself soon. Lawyers are looking over the fence at the AMA and they like what they see. Medical school enrollment in the US in capped to prevent the field from being flooded with qualified doctors. The system is artificial and it is designed to elevate doctor salaries. Something like this is coming to American law schools soon. The bar association is powerful and will not permit its power to be eroded by a perception that law is "cheap". If I was in a position to go to law school now I would jump at it. The gate will be closing soon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                    Originally posted by globaleconomicollaps View Post
                    I think that the situation in the law schools will resolve itself soon. Lawyers are looking over the fence at the AMA and they like what they see. Medical school enrollment in the US in capped to prevent the field from being flooded with qualified doctors. The system is artificial and it is designed to elevate doctor salaries. Something like this is coming to American law schools soon. The bar association is powerful and will not permit its power to be eroded by a perception that law is "cheap". If I was in a position to go to law school now I would jump at it. The gate will be closing soon.
                    Practically every politician in Washington is a lawyer (never practiced but that another story). I suggest we not short the bar association . . . .

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                    • #11
                      Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                      Originally posted by flintlock View Post

                      People out there. You must first make sure the pay in the industry you choose to pursue justifies the cost of the education. Otherwise its an uphill battle. If just doing what you loved was enough I'd be a bikini contest judge or a food taster. Perhaps the biggest sales job they've done is convince people this doesn't matter.
                      Absolutely. When did this concept begin? Maybe the increase in anecdotal evidence exposure has confused people on what is realistic. It's like wanting to be a professional video game player. Sure, there are people in the world who are able to manage this, but it's not a realistic option for 99.9% of people who would like to. I'm not sure if there's any career bikini contest judges.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                        Originally posted by DSpencer View Post
                        I'm not sure if there's any career bikini contest judges.
                        Usually those gigs to go to cultural celebrities on one level or another.

                        Similarly, usually it's ex-ballplayers that get those sweet broadcasting gigs.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                          Originally posted by globaleconomicollaps View Post
                          I think that the situation in the law schools will resolve itself soon. Lawyers are looking over the fence at the AMA and they like what they see. Medical school enrollment in the US in capped to prevent the field from being flooded with qualified doctors. The system is artificial and it is designed to elevate doctor salaries. Something like this is coming to American law schools soon. The bar association is powerful and will not permit its power to be eroded by a perception that law is "cheap". If I was in a position to go to law school now I would jump at it. The gate will be closing soon.
                          They were supposedly once going to do something similar for electricians. I was told they'd require a licensed electrician physically on every job and that we'd just sit back and get paid for "watching" the job. That never panned out! Around here you're lucky if ANYONE on the job has ever held a license. "What's Ohm's law?"

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                          • #14
                            Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                            On law schools and the AMA model, I completely disagree. The lawyer lobby does not exist at all. It is probably the only profession of its type that has zero political representation.

                            Their is ATLA, the personal injury plaintiff's association, that would sort of suffice, but it was offset by insurance defense industry whores who are now all broke and out of business.

                            That is the joke: over the last 20 years, the total volume of legal work has shrunk by more than 25%, despite the growth of the population and economy, and the growth of number of lawyers by over 200%. As with most industries these days, the only exceptions are the large, old, well connected firms to the FIRE industry or Federal Government.

                            Case in point; workmen's comp in Texas used to be a Court action, then it went to administrative review and the remedies capped so that an attorney can't afford to take a comp case. As with anything run by the government, you now have a mixed pattern of corrupt employers, fraudulent comp schemes, groups of workers abusing the system, etc., and rational results are rarely reached.

                            With the old system, a fraudulent case was quickly proven as such in front of the jury, and an egregious case of neglect by the employer was punished, so as to effectively deter unsafe practices. Sure, there were some big verdicts that shouldn't have happened occasionally, but that is a GOOD thing, on balance.


                            Today, it is almost impossible to file a malpractice lawsuit against a doctor or hospital anymore. You basically have to prove your case before you even have any power of discovery, just to file it; and you have to find a doctor who will testify under oath that your case is a winner, before you can even file it! Medical malpractice claims are down almost 80% since that 'reform'; think malpractice premiums are down? think again, and pay up when you get that cost passed on to you. Another win for FIRE.

                            Several other industries have similar protections, (e.g. surveyors!?)

                            Tort 'reform' has completely removed the fear of financial repurcussions from corporate mismanagement as a deterrent.

                            Now big money, and their insurers, know it is uneconomical for consumers, or their lawyers, to sue them, unless the case is absolutely one in a million. Their incentive is to simply hide their bad documents, lie under oath, deny everything, and work the Plaintiff to death.

                            Insurance defense lawyer's rates have continued to go DOWN since the 1980's, in actual dollars.... most lawyers simply can't afford to take a plaintiff's case. If you get sued your insurance carrier will probably pay their attorneys under $125 per hour to defend you - after overhead that is very lower middle class. (of course, if the carrier gets sued themselves, and perceive risk, they will pay up to $900 per hour for their own defense - another win for FIRE). Total number of lawsuits is less than a third what it was in the 80's, and the total verdict amounts are down by more than that. Have your insurance premiums decreased by that amount? Bet not. Another win for FIRE.

                            I'll quit the rant; the bottom line is FIRE wins, lawyers have NO lobby, in fact are one of the prime victims of ALL the other lobbies, and a legal eduction, while incredibly useful in life, is not worth the cost unless you just absolutely love it, are simply better at it than most, and want to work harder at it than you would in most any other profession.

                            I've been very fortunate, and found my niche, but I am one of the lucky ones.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Go To School, Get Ahead

                              Originally posted by flintlock View Post
                              "What's Ohm's law?"
                              Ohm's Law is the belief that only by chanting his name can you reach enlightenment.

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