Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

[flintlock]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

One big difference: There was a draft during the Vietnam War.

I thought this was the most obvious reason. Almost no one is being dragged kicking and screaming to be involved in these wars. And the pay and benefits for many are a lot better than they can ever hope to receive in the private sector. These wars would be politically difficult with conscription, at least in the US. And with conscription they would no longer need to offer the pay and benefits they do now. The popularity of serving would plummet. As it is now, it is a way of upward mobility for some, as well as a path to citizenship for others. That was not so much the case 40 years ago.

These wars have been going on long enough now that no one currently serving can claim he "didn't sign up for this". Most know going in that they will possibly serve at least one tour overseas in a "war zone". So if you feel opposed to the war you can choose not to serve. In that way people have much more say in it than during Vietnam, Korea, WWII, etc. Kind of gives you more perspective on those who served in Vietnam doesn't it? One reason I "care" about these wars of Empire is that I have a 13 year old son. I can see a point were we will need to reinstate the draft if this trend continues. I find this troubling. And when that happens more than a few will hop off the fence on this issue.

[flintlock]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

Because Obama is a Democrat.

The same people protesting war in the Bush era have been (for the most part) conspicuously silent since the end of 2008.

Examination of say, Cindy Sheehan, before and after Obama took office reveals the breathtaking double standard. She's still doing her thing - only now no one is listening.

Yep, very revealing on just how wedded Americans are to their party affiliations.

[flintlock]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

Another point along these lines are the push button warrior and the "mercenary" nature of todays soldier. I put the word in quotes because these guys are not doing it for the money but they are doing with a heightened since of self realized satisfaction that we all know is there. We are just as sympathetic but less empathetic than times before maybe because of this.

Thats kind of how I've seen it as well. Soldiers are given(rightly so) an elevated status that some of these kids could never otherwise hope to have in their lifetime. It's romanticized to some point. Not to demean what these guys go through, but if they spent 3 or 4 years away from home, spending most of it in a foxhole, with no communication with love ones, like in WWII, they might also be less willing to sign up for multiple tours. I'm not saying what some go through is easy, but by comparison, for most, it's not that bad. Good pay, good chow, good conditions. They've definitely made serving more appealing, which of course they had to considering its a volunteer Military.

[Jay]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

There are no protests, because the model, while breaking down, isn't broken yet. Humpty is teetering but still sits on the wall, there is no exposed egg yet. The people who aren't working are still being fed and entertained. Anyone who might give a crap is either silenced, an insider, gains an advantage from the system, or, most importantly, is so damn terrified of what lies on the other side once the system fails that they don't WANT to say anything even if they hate the overt corruption and the vampire nature of the status quo. That egg might not look like an omlette when it falls.

[coolhand]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

my guess is a significant portion of America's passivity could be described by a study on what % of the population is on mood-altering prescription drugs. If you are on prozac or whatever its new equivalent is, nothing bothers you...it's the legal version of heroin, "comfortably numb", & possibly akin to the Romans slowly poisoning themselves w/lead pipes

[Jay]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

it's the legal version of heroin, "comfortably numb", & possibly akin to the Romans slowly poisoning themselves w/lead pipes

I didn't know that occurred in Rome, but it makes some sense, interesting.

[c1ue]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

it's the legal version of heroin, "comfortably numb", & possibly akin to the Romans slowly poisoning themselves w/lead pipes

It is debatable whether it was the lead pipes.

A more likely story of lead ingestion is the use of lead vessels when boiling to make wine additives:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html

However, even so it is still somewhat debatable whether the decline of the Roman Empire was due to lead - they also had their problems with declining birth rates...

Rather than encrusted lead pipes, a more probable cause of chronic lead poisoning (plumbism or "saturnism" because its symptoms seemed indicative of the planet's characteristics) was the consumption of defrutum and sapa. Cato, Columella, Pliny, and Palladius (On Agriculture, XI.18) all describe how unfermented grape juice (mustum, must) was boiled to concentrate its sugar. "A product of art, not of nature," says Pliny (XIV.80), the must was reduced to one half (defrutum) or even one third its volume (sapa), and the thickened syrup used to sweeten and preserve wine and fruit that otherwise was sour or would spoil. Cato, for example, recommends that olives and pears be preserved in boiled must (VII.4) as does Varro (I.59.3). And Columella indicates that defrutum should always be boiled with quinces or some other flavoring (XII.20.2). Apicius, in De Re Coquinaria offers directions for preserving quinces in defrutum and honey (I.21) and added the rich syrup to many of his sauces to enhance the color and flavor of almost every dish, whether meat, fish, fowl, or fruit. (The fact that the reduction was used to color food indicates that red wine was used rather than white.)

The question is how the must was boiled and reduced, whether in pots of bronze or lead. If lead, there is a danger that the metal will be leached into the acidic juice. In De Agri Cultura, the earliest example of Latin prose (c.160 BC), Cato gives directions for reducing must in "a copper or lead vessel" over a slow fire, "stirring constantly to prevent scorching; continue the boiling, until you have boiled off a half" (CVII). Writing in the first century AD, Columella elaborates on this process.

"Some people put the must in leaden vessels and by boiling reduce it by a quarter, others by a third. There is no doubt that anyone who boiled it down to one-half would be likely to make a better thick form of must and therefore more profitable for use....But, before the must is poured into the boiling-vessels, it will be well that those which are made of lead should be coated inside with good oil and be well-rubbed, and that then the must should be put in....The vessels themselves in which the thickened and boiled-down must is boiled should be of lead rather than of brass; for, in the boiling, brazen vessels throw off copper rust [aerugo], and spoil the flavour of the preservative....Must of the sweetest possible flavour will be boiled down to a third of its original volume and when boiled down, as I have said above, is called defrutum" (XII.19.1, 19.6, 20.1, 21.1; notice that the definition is not always consistent).

Theophrastus, a student of Aristotle, was the first to describe the production of copper-rust (copper acetate) from the reaction of the metal and wine lees, by which the acetic acid (vinegar) in soured wine reacts with copper oxide to form copper acetate (De Re Metallica, IX).
Pliny, too, recommends that the must be prepared in lead vessels.

"Also boiled-down must and must of new wine should be boiled when there is no moon, which means at the conjunction of that planet, and not on any other day; and moreover leaden and not copper jars should be used, and some walnuts should be thrown into the liquor, for those are said to absorb the smoke" (XIV.136).

It would seem therefore that the must was boiled in cauldrons of lead, although Scarborough is reluctant to weaken his case, insisting that "one needs to read these texts carefully which mention a 'preference' for lead over bronze to realize that the Romans most often used bronze cauldrons (copper and tin in alloy), not those of lead." But copper and bronze are suspect as well. Pliny writes that "When copper vessels are coated with stagnum [a lead alloy], the contents have a more agreeable taste and the formation of destructive verdigris is prevented" (XXXIV.160) and that the best bronze was alloyed with ten percent lead and tin (XXXIV.95). Still, Scarborough insists that the short boiling time would not have contaminated the juice.

Aside from whether the must was boiled in lead, assumptions also have to be made regarding how much defrutum was added to sweeten and preserve the wine, the amount of wine consumed, and its lead content. Both Eisinger and Patterson et al. found that must reduced to one-third its volume contained approximately 1000 milligrams of lead per liter. If, as Columella recommends (XII.20.3), one sextarius of defrutum should be mixed with one amphora of wine, which held approximately 26 liters, the resulting proportion would be one part in forty-eight or almost 21 milligrams of lead per liter (2100 µg/dL), a concentration that certainly would induce symptoms of lead poisoning (even more so, if one follows Cato's recommendation of one part in thirty, XXIV).

Nriagu assumes the aristocracy of Rome to have consumed two liters of such wine a day (almost three bottles, which would seem to make alcoholism more suspect than lead poisoning) but estimates the lead intake from this amount to be much less, an average of 180 micrograms (µg) daily. Although the relationship between ingested lead and blood lead levels varies, he further estimates the total amount of lead absorbed in the blood from all sources to be 50 micrograms per deciliter (µg/dL). If correct, such a level would have significant physiological consequences, as reported by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

There is brain and kidney damage in adults with blood lead levels of 100 µg/dL; gastrointestinal symptoms such as colic, with levels of approximately 60 µg/dL; anemia with levels of 50 to 80 µg/dL; neurological symptoms with levels of 40 to 60 µg/dL; depressed sperm count with levels of 40 to 50 µg/dL; and increased risk of preterm delivery, low birth weight, and impaired mental development with maternal blood lead levels of 10 to 15 µg/dL. The physiological insult to children would be much greater.

His contention that "a large number of Roman aristocrats ingested more than enough lead with their foods and drinks each day to put them at risk for lead poisoning" may be correct. But to infer that the impact on fertility was one of the principle causes for the decline of the Roman empire is not. Twenty years before, Gilfillan had insisted that "lead poisoning is to be reckoned the major influence in the ruin of the Roman culture, progressiveness, and genius," a thesis convincingly refuted by Needleman and Needleman, who demonstrate that the decline of the Roman aristocracy can as easily be explained by a simple desire not to marry or to rear few or no children. Augustus sought to promote marriage and encourage procreation by legislation (the Julian laws of 18/17 BC and the Lex Papia Poppaea a generation later in AD 9). "And yet, marriages and the rearing of children did not become more frequent, so powerful were the attractions of a childless state" (Tacitus, Annals, III.25). Sheidel, too, in a review of the life span of emperors and aristocrats, dismisses any impact of lead ingestion on fertility: "Nor is there any need to suspect that the incidence of marital sterility in the Roman ruling class might have been much higher than in other groups, times, and places." Still, Nriagu insists that "one of the principle, probable causes of the internal weaknesses" of the Roman empire was lead poisoning of the aristocracy.

Certainly, the Romans knew lead to be dangerous, even if they did not associate it with their lead cooking vessels. Pliny speaks of the noxious fumes (sulfur dioxide) of the lead furnace (XXXIV.167; there was a four-fold increase in atmospheric Pb pollution during the Greco-Roman period), cerussa as a deadly poison (XXXIV.176, even though it was widely used as a medicine and cosmetic), and the power of sapa (and onion) to induce an abortion (XXIII.30). Soranus in his Gynecology (I.19.61) recommends that the mouth of the uterus be smeared with white lead to prevent conception. Galen (De Antidotis, XIV.144) and Celsus both provide an antidote for poisoning by white lead (V.27.12b), and Vitruvius remarks on the pernicious effects of water found near lead mines and its effect on the body (VIII.3.5, 6.11).

[Jay]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

It would be a relatively simple thing to dig up some Roman bones and perform x-ray florescencence on them to see the extent and demographics of lead poisoning in the society. If this hasn't been done, it should be.

[BigBagel]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

my guess is a significant portion of America's passivity could be described by a study on what % of the population is on mood-altering prescription drugs. If you are on prozac or whatever its new equivalent is, nothing bothers you...it's the legal version of heroin, "comfortably numb", & possibly akin to the Romans slowly poisoning themselves w/lead pipes

There's a certainly a need for anti-depressants. It's a godsend for people suffering from major depression. When it's prescribed to take the edge off things I don't know. I think that edge is there for a reason. When decision makers loose that edgy feeling it could lead to trouble and probably already has.


"you do look glum! What you need is a gramme of soma."
from Aldous Huxley's Brave New World

[flintlock]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

my guess is a significant portion of America's passivity could be described by a study on what % of the population is on mood-altering prescription drugs. If you are on prozac or whatever its new equivalent is, nothing bothers you...it's the legal version of heroin, "comfortably numb", & possibly akin to the Romans slowly poisoning themselves w/lead pipes

Or maybe Americans are just self centered as hell and as long as they get their American Idol and frozen Pizza, they could care less? Who knows?

[lektrode]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

Yikes, we're getting closer!
....
I suspected (hoped) then and still do now that Kucinich and Paul will increasingly occupy the "center" of American politics as both the left and right become more radical.
...
....Politically speaking, nothing would make me happier than bringing together these two forces and all of their credibility (on the left and the right) to dismantle the corporate hold on our National political scene.

as a sorta-kinda right-winger, i'd second that.

[Jay]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

Yikes, we're getting closer!

As a liberal and a Kucinich supporter and voter the only other candidate I saw with any integrity in the race was Ron Paul. Both were dealt with similarly, I just happened to agree with Kucinich's arguments more than Paul's.

I suspected (hoped) then and still do now that Kucinich and Paul will increasingly occupy the "center" of American politics as both the left and right become more radical. It may take another two or three election cycles, and much more hurt on Main Street, but these two seem to be the only ones that have any integrity in either party, and may represent opposite poles that can work together to restore responsible governance.

At this point, what is needed is not far-flung ideological goals, but a return to responsible representative government. I think both of these guys understand that better than anyone else in politics today.

Politically speaking, nothing would make me happier than bringing together these two forces and all of their credibility (on the left and the right) to dismantle the corporate hold on our National political scene.

The dichotomy between the two is interesting. While both are stout antagonists of the current Federal Reserve system, their solutions are very different. Ron Paul obviously espouses a return to the gold standard and its associated strengths and weaknesses. My impression of Kucinich is that he would rather set up a government run central bank similar to that of North Dakota, where new money is created for projects that are thought to improve the economy, like building new bridges, etc. Similar to the views espoused in Web of Debt and the Secret of Oz, he wants a new Civil War style greenback system.

[WildspitzE]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

The dichotomy between the two is interesting. While both are stout antagonists of the current Federal Reserve system, their solutions are very different. Ron Paul obviously espouses a return to the gold standard and its associated strengths and weaknesses. My impression of Kucinich is that he would rather set up a government run central bank similar to that of North Dakota, where new money is created for projects that are thought to improve the economy, like building new bridges, etc. Similar to the views espoused in Web of Debt and the Secret of Oz, he wants a new Civil War style greenback system.

spot on. imo, having congress be in charge of the money supply vs. the fed is akin to asking me if i want to get shot in the head with either a .357 or a .38.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

spot on. imo, having congress be in charge of the money supply vs. the fed is akin to asking me if i want to get shot in the head with either a .357 or a .38.

So are you saying The Bank of North Dakota and the Green Bay Packers are flukes, never to replicated?

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/...vy-wall-street

[Ghent12]

Re: Mega is as MAD as HELL...........but no else is?

So are you saying The Bank of North Dakota and the Green Bay Packers are flukes, never to replicated?

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/...vy-wall-street

It's possible for any idea that is wanting of merit to be realized for some amount of time before reality crushes it like a balloon.

OH COME ON!
surely you must be joking, facetious, sarcastic, eh?

Yes, I was joking. And don't call me Shirley.