Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

[gwynedd1]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Interesting to note that nickel is right at the fusion-fission line for energy creation-absorption. Past certain nickel and iron isotopes fusion absorbs energy I believe. Perhaps it is a more manageable process than hydrogen to helium.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Though does this differ from Thorium? Thorium reactors are much tamer and cleaner but where no good for bending plow shares into bombs. So no military R&D went into it.

[ASH]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Interesting to note that nickel is right at the fusion-fission line for energy creation-absorption. Past certain nickel and iron isotopes fusion absorbs energy I believe. Perhaps it is a more manageable process than hydrogen to helium.

You're right about the nuclear stability line, but Rossi is claiming to fuse hydrogen to nickel. It turns out that binding the hydrogen nucleus to nickel will release net energy because the hydrogen nucleus is eliminated as a free particle, even though the nucleus which is formed will be less stable than nickel. Another way to say this is that the binding energy per nucleon of the nickel will go down when a proton is added (formation of a less stable nucleus), but there will be one more nucleon, so the total nuclear binding energy will increase, and there will be a net release of energy. (In the core of a heavy star, late in its life, there isn't any hydrogen fuel for such a process -- only heavier, more stable nuclei. That's why stellar fusion is an energy-losing process past the nickel/iron line.)

The first step in such a fusion process might be ⁵⁸Ni + ¹H --> ⁵⁹Cu.

⁵⁸Ni (68% abundance) has nuclear binding energy per nucleon of 8.732041 MeV
¹H (99.985% abundance) has nuclear binding energy per nucleon of zero
⁵⁹Cu (radioactive, with halflife of 81.5 seconds) has nuclear binding energy per nucleon of 8.641981 MeV

So 58*8.732041 + 1*0 - 59*8.641981 = -3.418501 MeV is a net winner, as far as that goes. And more energy will be released when the ⁵⁹Cu decays.

But as for being a more manageable process -- not hardly. More protons means higher Coulomb barrier which means exponentially greater difficulty getting the reaction to go. Further, since nickel is such a stable nucleus, less energy will be released by fusing hydrogen to nickel than hydrogen to an appropriate lighter element (which would be exponentially easier to accomplish). Lastly, the kinetics probably aren't helped by the reaction product being highly unstable.

Binding Energy per Nucleon vs. Number of Nucleons

Chart from Supernovae and Nucleosynthesis by David Arnett (Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1996), p. 52.

[Fiat Currency]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Apparently these wind farms are being built to sell electricity to California...

If you are referring to the NEW ones in that article - yes. The ones I referred to have been there (in increasing numbers) for about a decade ... and sell power mostly within Alberta. I know many people in this business. I merely wanted Steve & others to realize that under the right circumstances wind power economics can work. That area of Alberta is prime location for wind power. The wind just rips right through there as it comes over the Rockies.

Wind is the enemy of a fly-fisherman but there is some great trout fishing down there.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled Rossi discussion.

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

If you are referring to the NEW ones in that article - yes. The ones I referred to have been there (in increasing numbers) for about a decade ... and sell power mostly within Alberta. I know many people in this business.

Perhaps you might point me towards some public data, or pass some info on these projects.

I am interested to see how these older projects compete and perform.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Therefore your intuition is wrong.

Here's something else that will challenge your terribly flawed intuition: the temperature of the filament in a 100 W light bulb exceeds 3600F -- much hotter than your oven. Yet each hour such a light bulb consumes just 1/20th the energy of your oven.

A 20 light bulb cluster, each using 100 watts, should in theory run my oven for one hour at 350F. That would be 2kwh of power for the system to work. The question is does a metre square of solar panels really provide 3kwh of electric power, under ideal conditions? That power would allow me to bake at 350F for an hour and cook for one hour using 1kwh of power doing something else.... Does that make sense, intuitively?

Maybe? But the point is that not only does the arithmetic have to make sense in the solar-electric calculations, but the science has to be sound, the system generating power has to be efficient, and the engineering has to fit the real world that we live in.

So, I was just trying to do some critical thinking and analysis of whether solar electric might work or not, especially would the economics of solar-electric make sense in the real world?

As for 3600F hot filaments, they are of negligible mass, so their heat capacity is negligible. The important thing is what energy they can radiate in an oven to cook food with..... In theory 20 electric lights, each consuming 100 watts of power, could as a system operate my stove oven for one-hour at 350F. One square metre of solar panels could easily supply the power for this, plus have extra power left over--- at least in theory, at perfect efficiency, and during the optimum solar conditions.

This was critical thinking and questioning about the viability of solar-electric systems--- critical thinking and questioning that is sorely needed to-day. That is all that I was doing. With me, there are no "settled issues". Everything needs to be checked and re-checked in the real world that we live in...... As for cold fusion, the issue about the reality of cold fusion will not be settled until cold fusion is verified and duplicated independently by others. As for the theory about cold fusion, what does the theory and the math really mean if cold fusion can not be verified and duplicated by others in the real world?

[Scot]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

A 20 light bulb cluster, each using 100 watts, should in theory run my oven for one hour at 350F.

And it might take just 10. Or it may take five. Or it may take one.

Knowing the Wattage only tells us how much energy is added to the system per second. If little of that energy escapes that system, very high temperatures can be achieved given enough time.

But okay, Steve. I appreciate your questioning, etc and I agree that solar is generally over-hyped, though it may in the end be our only option.

What this thread really proves to me is that the Watt ought to be banned from the English language and replaced everywhere with Joules/second. The public at large, I think, would have a much better understanding of energy if we did this.

[cmalbatros]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

could these be the answer - http://www.innovationnewsdaily.com/a...e-energy-1975/ & http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...119070894.html & http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0804114106.htm

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

A 20 light bulb cluster, each using 100 watts, should in theory run my oven for one hour at 350F.

If you mean the power supply for said light bulbs, then yes.

But that's meaningless as it just means plugging your oven into the same outlet/supply as the light bulbs.

The power provided is identical: the electricity going out of the outlet and into the light bulbs and/or oven.

If you look at solar systems - the ability to provide 2 kilowatts for 1 hour - again the problem is timing.

If we look at optimal solar production periods - i.e. the sun is overhead, a 2 kilowatts system would easily do so.

However, if it is nighttime there is no electricity.

If it is dawn or dusk, raining, snow, etc etc. you might need a 10 kilowatt or more system to actually produce 2 kilowatts for 1 hour.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

From this wikipedia page which I assume is the one you are using

The langley (Ly) is a unit of energy distribution over area. It is used to measure solar radiation (or insolation). The unit was named after Samuel Pierpont Langley (1834-1906) in 1947
and

In SI units, one langley is 41840.00 J/m² (or joules per square metre).
In more common units, one Langley is 11.622 watt-hours per square metre.


No where on this page does it say what the solar flux is. It says that The Langly is a unit that can be used to measure energy distribution over area such as solar radiation. This is just the same as saying the troy oz is a unit to measure weight and can be used to measure gold. You can't infer the the solar flux from this page.

If you're using a different wikipedia page or if what I've written is not clear let me know and I will try to explain itr better.

I'm with NASA and this wikipedia page

"Total Solar Irradiance upon Earth (TSI) was earlier measured by satellite to be roughly 1366 W/m²."

The solar flux in 2 langleys per hour outside of the Earth's atmosphere along the orbit of Earth around the Sun. On the ground at Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota, we measured the solar flux at 1 langley, best case, during solar noon in early summer on a clear day.

Quoting from the Wikipedia: "In more common units, one langley is 11.622 watt-hours per square metre." The reference can appear on your computer by going to Google and typing in the words: Langley (unit). Or you may type in: Langley energy unit.

The Wikipedia sites The Standard Broadband Format Manual as its source for the definition of the langley unit. Please note their footnote #1 in their reference section, on the same page as their definition of the langley unit.

The information in The Standard Broadband Format Manual comes from a solar power plant at Race Rocks, British Columbia, funded by the Govn't of BC. If you click onto the Race Rocks page, you will observe a solar power plant that requires fossil fuels (on site) to stay open and function........... That picture of the solar power plant with the tanks of fossil fuel around it tells me plenty about what a joke solar-electric is. And sad to say, the BC Govn't wasted grant money on constructing and operating that power plant.

Speaking about BC, a tidal power plant was a failure at the mouth of Sooke Harbour. So add that failure to the Race Rocks solar power plant..... Welcome to Ecotopia!

[Jam]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

The solar flux in 2 langleys per hour outside of the Earth's atmosphere along the orbit of Earth around the Sun. On the ground at Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota, we measured the solar flux at 1 langley, best case, during solar noon in early summer on a clear day.

It's ~ 2 langleys per minute, not hour. Check out the same quantity in other units here:
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...323#post202323

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Report #3 by Steven Krivit is out.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/20...5report3.shtml

Key notes:

1) Claims of energy increases has fallen from 213x to 6x
2) Defkalion is asking for 40 million euros plus for "exclusive rights" in a given nation, so even if Rossi isn't asking for money certainly someone is
3) Leonardo is apparently based out of Miami

Apt 505

Lots of photos and more detailed analysis.

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Now this is getting just weird: lawsuits, contract terminated but 'work progressing', lots of deals but no actual money changing hands, Rossi's wife (or is it ex-wife?)

http://www.e-cat.se/

In a press release Andrea Rossi states that the agreement between Praxen, the company that controls Defkalion, and EFA srl with Rossi’s wife Maddalena Pascucci as principal owner, is terminated.
As a consequence neither Praxen nor Defkalion holds any rights for exploitation of Andrea Rossi’s technology, it says in the release.
The technology is the so-called energy catalyzer that seems to generate heat from a previously unknown type of nuclear reaction.
No reason as to why the agreement is terminated is given.
“Since we will file a lawsuit to be tried in court, I cannot comment”, Rossi told Ny Teknik.
However, on his blog, Journal of Nuclear Physics, he states that “the issue is just financial, not personal, nor technological, nor scientific”.
Rossi said that the launch of a one megawatt heat plant, based on his technology, will take place as scheduled in October. The plant was supposed to be delivered to Defkalion and put in operation in Greece in October.
“The launch will take place in the United States under an agreement that we signed last week with one of the most important entities of the USA. It will be overseen by researchers at a very high level, but I cannot mention any names until after the launch”, Andrea Rossi said.
The press release noted that no information or industrial secrets have been transferred to Praxen-Defkalion.
Despite Rossi's statement Defkalion has no intention to stop the project.
"We believe we have a project. We continue the project. We still have a lot of trust in Mr Rossi. We believe in the technology. But as you understand we are receiving a lot of pressure, also Rossi is receiving a lot of pressure internationally. And we believe that Rossi is more vulnerable than us to pressure. This will be fixed I believe", Alexandros Xanthoulis, representing the investors told Ny Teknik.
(A complete statement from Defkalion can be found here).
(A comment from Prof. Christos Stremmenos, board member of Defkalion and the link between Bologna and Greece, can be found here).
After Defkalion's press conference in Athens on 23 June, commercial interest in partnership with the company was significant. After a couple weeks, 850 companies from 63 countries contacted Defkalion and expressed interest in cooperation.
These companies received a message from Defkalion stating that the license fee for manufacturing Defkalion’s products in a country amounted to EUR 40.5 million, per plant. This included training and help to establish the factory.
According to Alexandros Xanthoulis, over 200 companies in 47 countries are now prepared to pay the license fee, out of which 17 companies have signed an agreement with Defkalion. No financial transactions has still been made though.
Alexandros Xanthoulis also confirmed that Defkalion hasn't yet paid any money to Rossi or to his companies.
In late July the debate on whether the E-cat is actually producing energy got new momentum when the online magazine Newenergytimes.com, specializing in LENR (Low Energy Nuclear Reactions), published a report on Rossi’s technology.
The report disputes the measurements made, and also observations made by Ny Teknik during two tests in April 2011.
According to the report the uncertainty regards whether all the water fed into the E-cat at the tests was actually evaporated, or if there was a large amount of water droplets dispersed in the steam. The hypothesis is that much less energy than calculated was required if the water was not completely evaporated.
Rossi relies on a report by the chemist Dr. Gilberto Galantini who measured the steam quality and stated that it contained at most 4.73 percent water by mass, which would affect the calculated energy by 2 percent.
Ny Teknik turned to Professor Björn Palm, Head of the Energy Technology Division at the Royal Institute of Technology, doing research on heat transfer by evaporation. Based on the given dimensions and geometry, he gave his assessment of the situation:
“Any air in the tube is driven out of the flowing steam. This means that at the outlet there is pure steam, possibly with a little water droplets that come with the flow from the liquid surface. However, I cannot imagine that this would affect the 'effective' enthalpy of vaporization. From other cases with evaporation in tubes I would guess that the steam quality is at least 90%. “
Working with his report, the journalist at Newenergytimes.com, Steven Krivit, asked assistance from Ny Teknik with interpretation of the measurements made so far.
- - - -
READ MORE: Our complete coverage on Rossi's E-cat can be found here.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

For those following this story, here are some photos of the 1 MW unit Rossi is planning to demonstrate in October.

http://ecatreport.com/ecat-plant/uni...1mw-ecat-plant

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Here is the latest news on the Rossi device. It was tested in front of a dozen or so scientists. Also, the 1 MW plant will be turned on on October 28.

http://ecatreport.com/e-cat/video-su...ed-by-ecat-com