Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Yes, and now Rossi is claiming a delay in public outing of his magical device due to: the Patent Office forcing him to create a Self Destruct device inside it.

I've never heard any such thing before. Anyone?

Http://pesn.com/2011/06/07/9501841_P...ct_Capability/

To preserve intellectual property and trade secrets, because the patent office is dragging its feet in granting a patent, Andrea Rossi is being forced to design a self destruct mechanism to be built into every E-Cat (Energy Catalyzer) used by the public. This could delay the public (non-industrial) launch of the technology.

Notice again the use of the astroturf "Journal of Nuclear Physics" links...

Apparently October is now December...

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Even better: Andrea Rossi apparently was involved in some "Garbage to Oil" story in the late '70s/early '80s:

http://translate.google.com/translat...on&sl=it&tl=en

Oh and lest you think this is some 'other' Rossi:

http://translate.google.com/translat...drearossi.com/

Go to the Home > Biographical Sheets > Read

And you see this:

Still maintains a good working relationship with the United States and started working with LTI (Leonardo Technology Incorporated), a company that provides technology and equipment to the DOE (Department of Energy) and the DOD (Department of Defense) on the production of energy from renewable sources.

Yes, that same company that was awarded contracts for E-Cat.

Smells worse and worse...

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

This doesn't seem plausible as a scam to me. What's the point? He's not going to make any money off of a scam. And he's let people examine and test the unit. Here's a couple quotes from an interview with Nobel Prize Laureate Brian Josephson about the device:

JD: Is it possible that Rossi’s just fooling people, he’s made it seem as if the reactor is heating up water, but he’s just trying to persuade people to invest in it, or to buy it, but it actually doesn’t really work.
BJ: Various people think that this is all a scam, but it’s not that plausible an idea because he allows people to investigate it; they can decide what to measure, how to measure it, they can also look inside, peer inside; the only thing they can’t look at is the reactor that contains his secret catalyst. But it doesn’t matter if you can’t look inside as what you’re trying to do is to see if it can produce this vast amount of heat which has been measured, and no matter what ordinary process it is you can’t produce more than a certain amount of energy in that amount of volume. So it doesn’t really matter if you can’t look inside. The reason he doesn’t want people to look inside is that they might discover how he does it and obviously, since it’s a commercial enterprise he doesn’t want other people to be able to make it so that he would lose what he gets back by selling the devices.

JD: So what do you think is going to happen?
BJ: Well, as I see it, there are two different worlds, there’s the world of the academic, and the world of the practical person. The academic is mired in theory, and wanting absolute proof, and says ‘this is nonsense’ — at least that’s the general view. Meanwhile Rossi is going ahead in the practical sphere, … he’s building these reactors and people will — one hopes — see that they’re producing lots of energy. His first reactor is due to be produced in October, and he has a buyer for it. People, by the way, don’t have to pay until they’re convinced it is working, which is not what fraudsters do. So I think gradually it will take off.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

This doesn't seem plausible as a scam to me. What's the point? He's not going to make any money off of a scam. And he's let people examine and test the unit. Here's a couple quotes from an interview with Nobel Prize Laureate Brian Josephson about the device:

JD: Is it possible that Rossi’s just fooling people, he’s made it seem as if the reactor is heating up water, but he’s just trying to persuade people to invest in it, or to buy it, but it actually doesn’t really work.
BJ: Various people think that this is all a scam, but it’s not that plausible an idea because he allows people to investigate it; they can decide what to measure, how to measure it, they can also look inside, peer inside; the only thing they can’t look at is the reactor that contains his secret catalyst. But it doesn’t matter if you can’t look inside as what you’re trying to do is to see if it can produce this vast amount of heat which has been measured, and no matter what ordinary process it is you can’t produce more than a certain amount of energy in that amount of volume. So it doesn’t really matter if you can’t look inside. The reason he doesn’t want people to look inside is that they might discover how he does it and obviously, since it’s a commercial enterprise he doesn’t want other people to be able to make it so that he would lose what he gets back by selling the devices.

JD: So what do you think is going to happen?
BJ: Well, as I see it, there are two different worlds, there’s the world of the academic, and the world of the practical person. The academic is mired in theory, and wanting absolute proof, and says ‘this is nonsense’ — at least that’s the general view. Meanwhile Rossi is going ahead in the practical sphere, … he’s building these reactors and people will — one hopes — see that they’re producing lots of energy. His first reactor is due to be produced in October, and he has a buyer for it. People, by the way, don’t have to pay until they’re convinced it is working, which is not what fraudsters do. So I think gradually it will take off.

If this is a scam it sure is a weird one!

[Adeptus]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

"I want to believe" - X-files
:-)

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

His first reactor is due to be produced in October, and he has a buyer for it. People, by the way, don’t have to pay until they’re convinced it is working, which is not what fraudsters do. So I think gradually it will take off.

If you look at the press release from the Greek company, you'll note that in fact the company is only selling the outside equipment. The 'core' Rossi reactors are still coming from Rossi himself presumably.

You'll also note that the 300 million euro for the 'plants' is not actually funded, and that this funding is still being sought.

So to say that Rossi doesn't gain anything monetary from this is wrong.

It is also of note that the various LTI, Defkalion, etc etc business ventures are doing is selling licensing. They don't actually sell the reactors per se.

This neatly gets around the problem of having to actually provide the hardware.

Again, the various scams in Rossi's past don't automatically discredit anything new.

The astro-turfing operations equally don't automatically discredit a potential breakthrough.

This Patent Office nonsense is equally troubling given someone of his years and past business experience should absolutely know better, and to say something as ridiculous as "The gubmint is making me do it" is troubling, but not automatically a showstopper.

The attempt to link CE (the European UL equivalent) as a mark of credibility is also troubling, but not a showstopper.

Any one or two of these can occur, and often do with anything new. However, taken in toto the picture painted is not one of credibility.

[santafe2]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

If this is a scam it sure is a weird one!

The best scams are very inventive. They are partly verifiable background, partly googy magic and partly amazing lies. If you haven't studied this area science or worked in this industry, it's best to assume it's nonsense.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Remarkable the number of eco-frauds and promoters ( in the worst sense of that word ) that have been in the green energy and alternative energy movement, since that movement began in the 1970s.

On KGO Radio in San Francisco this weekend, one of the eco-frauds was asked where is all of the power promised from windmills and solar, not to mention adventures with "micro-dams" and burning garbage for power. The fraud was forced to admit that alternative energy projects in California have not met power generation expectations, nor the state's power needs.

Just noticing to-night that in Germany, the government is moving to build coal-fired power plants because there is no power to replace the power generated by nuclear power plants, the ones that the Andrea Merkel government has ordered to be closed. And here is more evidence that what the greens ( the Green Party, Greenpeace, and that whole bunch ) are all about is going back to using coal, the dirtiest of all fuels. Of course, they would never admit it, but the sad truth is that coal is their default fuel.

Just reading the British papers online this weekend and reading comments and articles about the cost of power, I noticed that the public in the UK is beginning to deeply resent the lies, the hoaxes, the arrogance, and the hypocrisy of those in the green movement. One article that I read was entitled, "One-in-Five Households Living in Fuel Poverty" published July 15, 2011 in Money High Street.

The mood in California about so-called, "green power" and "alternative power" is changing also, especially after recent hikes in electric rates by PG & E. The windmills and solar in California have generated next to nothing in the way of power, and this rude-awakening is after decades of government subsidies and grants for such.

So when I read about cold fusion "confirmations" by so-called "scientists", I know the confirmation is another scam and another promotion from the alternative-energy bunch. The "scientists" are promoters, in this case, well-known promoters with a long resume of doing such.

[santafe2]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Remarkable the number of eco-frauds and promoters ( in the worst sense of that word ) that have been in the green energy and alternative energy movement, since that movement began in the 1970s..

The mood in California about so-called, "green power" and "alternative power" is changing also, especially after recent hikes in electric rates by PG & E. The windmills and solar in California have generated next to nothing in the way of power, and this rude-awakening is after decades of government subsidies and grants for such.

So when I read about cold fusion "confirmations" by so-called "scientists", I know the confirmation is another scam and another promotion from the alternative-energy bunch. The "scientists" are promoters, in this case, well-known promoters with a long resume of doing such.

Really...this is the worst post I've read in several years.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

So when I read about cold fusion "confirmations" by so-called "scientists", I know the confirmation is another scam and another promotion from the alternative-energy bunch. The "scientists" are promoters, in this case, well-known promoters with a long resume of doing such.

I can understand the skepticism, which is certainly warranted. But I don't think in this case that the scare quotes around the word "scientists" are justified. At least two of the scientists who have checked this out have very solid credentials. Here's a snippet from a story about them examining the device:

On March 29, 2011, a test of a smaller Rossi device was performed. It was attended by two new observers: Hanno Essén, associate professor of theoretical physics and chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society, and Sven Kullander, chairman of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences' Energy Committee. They agree with other independent observers that the device must be producing a nuclear reaction.

Skeptics like yourself should be careful that you base your criticisms on solid reasoning and not just a mirror-image of the kind of emotional bias that leads some to automatically believe. The scientists who have examined the device and dismissed non-nuclear explanations are not frauds.

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Skeptics like yourself should be careful that you base your criticisms on solid reasoning and not just a mirror-image of the kind of emotional bias that leads some to automatically believe. The scientists who have examined the device and dismissed non-nuclear explanations are not frauds.

The use of big names is irrelevant, since none of the big names has been exposed to the actual theoretical underpinnings of the device.

It isn't a case of: I understand how it works but cannot reveal it. Or I've had 100% access to all parts of the device. Or even the scientific measurements are flawless.

It is: Rossi talks a good talk, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Really...this is the worst post I've read in several years.

And you thought that you could generate a substantial amount of power from windmills in places where there is little if any wind, i.e, in California in most places, most of the time?

As far as solar is concerned, the Sun generates approximately one calorie per square metre per minute on a black surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at the surface of the Earth at solar noon, with a clear sky, without anything blocking the radiation and producing a shadow, with moderate to low relative humidity, and this flux during the late spring or early summer only. Sad to say, the truth is that the flux of energy is approximately 5.5 watts per hour.

A fifth-grade or sixth-grade student in school could calculate the area of the surface required at 100% efficiency to generate one kilowatt-hour of electricity. End of story: If you start with next-to-nothing in energy, you end-up with next-to-nothing in energy.

I assure you that I am a moron, but even I can understand these obvious facts about solar energy. Forty years ago, I sat in the grass of the St. Paul agricultural campus of the University of Minnesota in St. Paul, Minnesota. We measured the solar energy flux day after day, for much of an entire summer.... Very boring! Needless to say, I was unimpressed by solar energy, at least as a source for generating electric power.

As far as cold fusion is concerned, the successful generation of such would be a game-changer for mankind. But heretofore, the only known fusion on Earth occurs in the heat of an atomic-bomb trigger for a hydrogen bomb, and in the hydrogen bomb itself. Inside the Earth near the core of the Earth, there is enough heat to generate fusion reactions, too.... End of story about fusion on Earth, at least until cold fusion is demonstrated successfully in a laboratory and can be checked by others and reproduced by other morons like myself.

[c1ue]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

Really...this is the worst post I've read in several years.

I'm always hesitant to line up behind Starving Steve, but in this case he isn't so far off the mark.

The entire $/watt marketing meme which the solar industry pushes is highly misleading.

It is misleading because the solar watt generates far less kwh per year than a coal, natural gas, nuclear, or hydroelectric watt.

In general said solar watt generates less than 1/3 to less than 1/4 kwh vs. the above.

Couple this with the far higher cost for anything except nuclear - not good.

This is why solar is sold to the consumer: it just doesn't stack up commercially (at least right now) with the (almost) exception of diesel peak generators.

To give an idea of what that means business wise: the cost per kwh from diesel peak generator plants in California is in the $0.9 - $1.8 per kwh. Solar needs some more technological improvement to be able to compete against that, though it is within reach.

Those who already bought home solar systems bought into technology which cannot even compete against $1/kwh technology.

To put this in perspective, this is more than 4x what grid electricity costs retail in California right now.

[bungee]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

As far as solar is concerned, the Sun generates approximately one calorie per square metre per minute on a black surface perpendicular to the Sun's rays at the surface of the Earth at solar noon, with a clear sky, without anything blocking the radiation and producing a shadow, with moderate to low relative humidity, and this flux during the late spring or early summer only. Sad to say, the truth is that the flux of energy is approximately 5.5 watts per hour.

Can you produce some refs to back this statement up?

Wikipedia says

"The solar flux averaged over just the sunlit half of the Earth's surface is about 680 W/m^2"


and

"Total Solar Irradiance upon Earth (TSI) was earlier measured by satellite to be roughly 1366 W/mē." I assume this is above the equator



Also 5.5 watts / hour is 5.5 J/s / hour. These units make no sense. It like saying your speed is 5.5 m/s /h - how fast would you be going?

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Rossi "cold fusion" device function confirmed by two Swedish scientists

The use of big names is irrelevant, since none of the big names has been exposed to the actual theoretical underpinnings of the device.

It isn't a case of: I understand how it works but cannot reveal it. Or I've had 100% access to all parts of the device. Or even the scientific measurements are flawless.

It is: Rossi talks a good talk, and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I think it's a little more than "Rossi talks a good talk and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt." It's more like "I have examined the test apparatus and the measuring devices and have done the math, and there is no way that a chemical reaction can explain this much heat being generated from this small a volume of material. In our judgment this must be a nuclear reaction."

True, they don't know what the theory is to explain it, and they have not been told what the catalyst is. But hasn't it often been the case that people began using new technologies before they understood the theory? And it's understandable that he doesn't want to show people the catalyst or explain it...this could make him a billionare hundreds of times over. I wouldn't show anyone either.

I find it compelling that people with "big names" have examined the apparatus and have written a report saying "this must be a nuclear reaction." Unless you assume the "big names" are being paid off, or are too dumb to be able to see how the apparatus in front of their eyes that they are examining is a magic trick to fool them - which would be difficult, if you read their report of what they saw - then I don't think you can so easily dismiss the report of these two Swedish scientists. Don't you think that a guy who is the chairman of the "Skeptics Society" is fairly likely to be able to spot a fake right in front of his eyes? Isn't that how he got to be the chairman of a Skeptics Society?

Yes, it could all be a fraud but it has gone on too long now and there's too much independent testimony, in my opinion, for that to be the most likely explanation at this point.