Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

[mesyn191]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

The change hasn't been just in the last 10 years; it started well before that in the '70s.

That is when wages/benefits started to really change among other things, but the hiring/firing process?

When you have an economy based instead on a 3rd world banana republic type system - where wealth creation is primarily a function of government and/or monopoly/oligopoly, and jobs are a function of serving those few tied into said wealth creation, there is no significant impact when a recovery occurs.

OK fair enough, I'd certainly agree that we're moving towards an economy that will be like that, but I don't know if we're there yet. If we are at that point already though its not clear to me that the people who do make the decisions to hire/fire would even actually know. Its not like I know these people or anything, but the few anecdotes you manage to hear about the people who run the corps is that they're all in their own little bubble, carefully preserved by a entourage of hangers on and yes men that surround them. They seemed to get caught with their foot in their mouths as most did with the bubble bust.

[mesyn191]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

Interesting quotes, thank you. It's been a long time since I've read Smith. While Smith was right about a lot of things, he was wrong about a lot of things too

OK who do you think got it right? Its not like I think Smith is perfect but I also think he was better than most too. FWIW I don't think any ideology has gotten it right so to speak, but things used to be a hell of a lot better for people in general 30 or 40 years ago.

There are differences and they understood them well, taxation was in the list of grievances of the declaration of independence for a reason.

Sure but it wasn't just "Taxation.". They were pissed about taxation without representation among other things.

While I try to avoid the whole rich vs poor rubbish,

Meh, I don't think we'll be able to agree on much of anything if you don't think there is a class war going on right now.

could it be that once the federal government continued on its path to consolidate power (which needs to be funded) decided to tax the only thing missing, that the rich then began their efforts to change how they earn "income" and lobby for changes that would be beneficial to them?

If you want to take that argument then you'd have to admit that they appear to have not only waaay over shot their efforts by making sure they get the vast overwhelming majority of the wealth but they appear to have also done so by helping the gov. to impoverish the middle/poor classes.

To me it sounds like it was spoken like a proper slave, using red herrings as an excuse to justify the reason why he has given up to the parasitism that enslaves him. Just remember that I wasn't talking about taxes in general (based on things people have a choice on or on entities like corporations, it was specifically about the income tax).

Its an extreme example to (hopefully) illustrate a point, much like the one you gave where 100% tax is no different from slavery. The point being to support a modern society as we know it today you're going to need some sort of income tax, or at least a very high sales tax (VAT), etc. Philosophically there are reasons to dislike that, but none are really practical and ultimately things have to be practical, otherwise its just pointless.

[mesyn191]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

This thread reminds me of a quote and a recent article.

The article below describes the attitude and mentality of the elites very well.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...al-elite/8343/

Great article thanks.

[c1ue]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

OK fair enough, I'd certainly agree that we're moving towards an economy that will be like that, but I don't know if we're there yet.

I disagree. If you look at the US GDP at this instant, FIRE is a huge component.

Normal 3rd world banana republics base their government on military power - the difference in the US is the addition of banksters on top of the military power - though both institutions actually dominate via finance as opposed to force.

[mesyn191]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

I disagree. If you look at the US GDP at this instant, FIRE is a huge component.

I agree but I don't think its in the majority yet. IOW I think most if not half the GDP still comes from the average person buying stuff.

[LazyBoy]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

We may not live in gulags/labor camps but, we sure don't have a strong nation protecting us. Todays "universal human"/multicultural societies don't have the ability to stand up together, they are fighting biology and thousands of years of evolution. They are an easy target to be preyed upon

But where does that leave me as an English speaking white guy? Should I be searching for or working towards a nation of the same? Yuck. We've all got to "tribe up" like in prison or street gangs?? I don't want to be a skinhead.

[DSpencer]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

AFAIK most historians do, you even mention he had a huge impact on the ones you'd agree are Founding Fathers so yea, you kinda mooted your own point.

No, I didn't mention that, someone else did. I wouldn't dispute it though. Jesus also had a huge impact on many of the founding fathers, does that make him a founding father? Unfortunately, what you know doesn't get you very far. You better call all of your historian friends and tell them to set the record straight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin...unding_Fathers

Nope, I said that in relation to the "eat the rich" quote and later mentioned for the multi billionaires I would like to go higher but would accept less. I think I noted it as an edit..

The words were in plain english and directly contradicted each other. There's no way for other people to know your secret, unwritten meanings. I'm guessing you're the kind of person who has more than a little trouble admitting you're wrong.

You're saying you understand the hiring/firing process better than I do. OK fair enough, draw some sort of line in the sand to point as a rough guide to work from.

This wasn't addressed to me, but I'll say the same thing.

Almost anyone could understand the process better than you, because your view is totally backwards. You think that the goal of a company is/should be to maximize employment. You think that if a person running a company sees a big profit, they should immediately hire more people to eat away at it. You don't understand that if a CEO has cut back on staff to make a profit, they have done their job properly.

You think your ideas are appropriate because it's better for social reasons or "better for the economy at large". You are misguided and thinking short term. It's "better for the economy at large" if people are in productive jobs, not just collecting a paycheck. You don't understand that giving people jobs that don't add net value is going to hurt the company (their employer) and them personally long term.

If you want to be angry about big corporations in America, don't despair, there's plenty of reasons. You already know some of them, like buying a competitive edge through lobbying for anti-competitive regulations. But don't just assume that any and all unfortunate economic outcomes, such as high unemployment, are the result of some master plan to crush the middle/lower class. Often they are the result of know-it-all central planners who think they can single-handedly manage the economy better than everyone else combined. No matter how many times they're proven wrong, there's always another willing to try.

[Raz]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

No, I didn't mention that, someone else did. I wouldn't dispute it though. Jesus also had a huge impact on many of the founding fathers, does that make him a founding father? Unfortunately, what you know doesn't get you very far. You better call all of your historian friends and tell them to set the record straight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundin...unding_Fathers



The words were in plain english and directly contradicted each other. There's no way for other people to know your secret, unwritten meanings. I'm guessing you're the kind of person who has more than a little trouble admitting you're wrong.



This wasn't addressed to me, but I'll say the same thing.

Almost anyone could understand the process better than you, because your view is totally backwards. You think that the goal of a company is/should be to maximize employment. You think that if a person running a company sees a big profit, they should immediately hire more people to eat away at it. You don't understand that if a CEO has cut back on staff to make a profit, they have done their job properly.

You think your ideas are appropriate because it's better for social reasons or "better for the economy at large". You are misguided and thinking short term. It's "better for the economy at large" if people are in productive jobs, not just collecting a paycheck. You don't understand that giving people jobs that don't add net value is going to hurt the company (their employer) and them personally long term.

If you want to be angry about big corporations in America, don't despair, there's plenty of reasons. You already know some of them, like buying a competitive edge through lobbying for anti-competitive regulations. But don't just assume that any and all unfortunate economic outcomes, such as high unemployment, are the result of some master plan to crush the middle/lower class. Often they are the result of know-it-all central planners who think they can single-handedly manage the economy better than everyone else combined. No matter how many times they're proven wrong, there's always another willing to try.

Thank you, DSpencer. I couldn't possibly agree more.

[chr5648]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

But where does that leave me as an English speaking white guy? Should I be searching for or working towards a nation of the same? Yuck.

What's wrong with being an English speaking white guy? Where did you learn to have so much animosity towards yourself, your heritage, your culture? There is nothing yucky being an English speaking white guy.

We've all got to "tribe up" like in prison or street gangs?? I don't want to be a skinhead.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn wasn’t referring to being protected in the camps, he was referring to the USSR, if there existed a strong Russian nation, that nation would not allow gulags/labor camps to have existed and harmed it’s inhabitants. On the other hand the USSR despised individuals or ethnic nationals, instead promoting a universal human. You were not a Russian, you were just a cog in the system. Very similar to what is currently happening in Belarus, the western media are completely ignoring the return of a communist ideology.

This is abstractly similar to modernism/fire economy. You are not in a camp, nor is your life threatened but, consumption, usury, and debt are methods of obedience and exploitation, you are a cog in a system.


Besides an ethno-nationalistic movement or a massive bankruptcy of which both have a near 0% chance of happening, I see very few options that will bring any reform. A good bet is to become a usurer yourself.

[LazyBoy]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

What's wrong with being an English speaking white guy? Where did you learn to have so much animosity towards yourself, your heritage, your culture? There is nothing yucky being an English speaking white guy.

No animosity. I just like variety and don't want to exclude anyone because they're not the same.

I thought you were saying that a multicultural society couldn't stand when times get tough. And that when things go sideways, we'd all be better off with our "own kind".

[mesyn191]

Re: Proposal to Strip Corporations of Constitutional Rights Gains Momentum in Wisconsin

Jesus also had a huge impact on many of the founding fathers, does that make him a founding father?

Wooorld of difference there and you know it so I'm assuming you're being hyperbolic.

The words were in plain english and directly contradicted each other.

Nah I just wasn't clear, hence the edit, which I already noted, even in the quote you used, so get over it.

You think that the goal of a company is/should be to maximize employment.

I know good and well that goal of any individual company is to maximize profit, not employment. But there is also supposed to be some sort of balance in the market place between employer's want to raise profits and employee's want for wages. And then there are ethics too, which isn't really addressed at all by the current market place, much less you or the person I was originally replying too, but is sort of left to the gov. to take care of, but that is a joke. Both worker's wages and business ethics seem to get the short end of the stick to say the least and there doesn't seem to be any recognition of that nor a solution to that you and others are offering here. The most I hear are vague philosophical and ideological hand wavings which might perhaps work in a utopia but not the real world we have to exist in.

You don't understand that if a CEO has cut back on staff to make a profit, they have done their job properly.

Reminder: staff have been cut to make RECORD profits, higher than peak bubble levels. I know its good for the corps, but is whats good for the corps good for society at large? I hear so much how we have to protect our corps profits so that they don't go under and so we can keep all those jobs which ultimately is the way they're supposed to benefit society. However if they keep firing people to pump up more profits and keep the money for themselves why in the world should anyone give a shit about the corps? They're leaches on society at that point.

It's "better for the economy at large" if people are in productive jobs, not just collecting a paycheck.

Except productivity has been rising for a long time in excess of wages, so the argument that they're trimming fat doesn't hold up.

But don't just assume that any and all unfortunate economic outcomes, such as high unemployment, are the result of some master plan to crush the middle/lower class.

I don't believe there is some secret master plan that these people all adhere to and plot in secret smoky back rooms while evilly twisting their mustachioes and guffaw over. I do believe that at this point most or nearly all of them are Gordon Gecko wannabes and posses that same near sociopathic level of social darwinism to justify their actions though.