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  • Underwater Downunder

    Steve keen's been ringing the tocsin for the last few years on Australia's RE ponzi efforts. Turns out there was plenty of land down under . . . .


    AFTER more than 18 months on the market, the luxury Riverview On March apartments finally went under the hammer yesterday — and about 140 people came to watch as they sold for a song.

    Valued at $650,000 to $700,000-plus each, four of the six units sold. They fetched $510,000, $320,000, $339,000 and $300,000.

    Auctioneer Jason Andrew was made to earn his keep in cajoling every last dollar out of the buyers, but bidding was desultory for the two penthouses, which were eventually passed in because they did not meet the reserve price.

    Developer Ron Blyth admitted he felt hard done by, with three of the four sold units going for less than half the building cost.

    Even on the highest-selling apartment, Mr Blyth lost about $200,000 – or a total of about $1.2 million for the combined sales.

    “It's less than encouraging,” he said. “The situation probably is that real estate isn't in vogue at the moment.”

    http://www.frasercoastchronicle.com....ces-riverview/


    BUYERS are deserting the housing market at a pace that threatens a slump in housing prices and a risk to the economic outlook.

    The number of new housing loans approved by the banks dropped 5.6 per cent to a 10-year low in February, after a similarly sharp drop in the previous month.

    The Queensland floods were not to blame, because the number of new housing loans fell in all states. Among the biggest falls was a 10.1 per cent drop in NSW.

    The buyer retreat comes as the stock of unsold houses mounts. Figures compiled by property analysts SQM Research show there are now 356,600 properties on the market, which is almost 50 per cent more than a year ago.

    "It is clear now that the sudden drop in finance approvals in the new year is not to do with the flooding, but is rather due to the Reserve Bank's interest rate rise in November, which was the straw that broke the camel's back," SQM chief executive Louis Christopher said.

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...-1226034940341


    Keen's Charts:





    Since 1987, banks have moved more and more into real estate loans




    Mortgages account for a record 57 percent of banks' loan books



    (what's TBTF in Australian?)

    They account for a record 37% of bank assets



    Compared to America, real estate loans are a higher share of bank assets, and they increased in significance more quickly

    (that's what a good teacher can do ... or is Goldman in the woodpile)



    THE BUST BEGINS: Impaired assets have surged to 25% of Tier 1 capital, even while home prices increase



    Real estate loans are worth 700% of Tier 1 capital. An increase in non-performing loans would cause grave damage







    DEBT PRESSURE: Australians already pay 50% more than the U.S. in mortgage interest






    Mortgage debt exploded to almost 90% of GDP







    The latest bubble started with the highest debt level and has lasted longest






    Only the 1920s bubble is comparable in debt growth





    The rise in house prices has been unprecedented





    Banks have soared like never before -- and have a long ways to fall





    According to the Economist, Australia has the most overpriced housing market anywhere



    We need a new wave theory. Elliot is clearly in over his head here. Suggested title - the 100 year or so Wave-Goodbye Theory . . . .

  • #2
    Re: Underwater Downunder

    Can any of our Aussie members comment about what's happening "on the ground"?

    It's my understanding that there are a few Aussie anomolies, such as:

    1.)Urban and inner suburb Sydney real estate remaining robust(for now) possibly due to topography and limitations on building additional capacity.

    2.)Communities that directly support natural resource extraction remain robust.

    My understanding is Brisbane and the Gold Coast is exhibiting Florida-esque characteristics beyond just weather to include real estate prices circa 2005 or so.

    The gross salaries and hourly rates of folks I know working in Australia on natural resource projects are all making good money(and their employers are getting their money's worth) and some are making staggering sums of money.

    I know a bunch of guys rotating in/out of long-term natural resource extraction projects making $150K+ with high school equivalency, basic trade training, and a very strong work ethic.

    One in particular paid $150K+ in income tax ALONE for a 6 month work year as an ROV operator in the oil/gas industry.....all from a great work ethic and attending a basic ROV course in the UK/Scotland on his own dime less than 2 years ago.....the rest was on the job training paid for by his company.

    I know natural resource related wages aren't going to support the entire country.....but I wonder if the effects of natural resource exports will result in maybe a "crash with Australian characteristics".

    It just seems like certain places and segments of the Aussie economy can support silly real estate prices longer than others with natural resource wage inflation...until they eventually can't?

    Just my amateur anecdotal opinion.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Underwater Downunder

      I'd love to see Keen vindicated here. Same thing happened in Canada from my understanding: the federal government stepped in after the GFC to pay 15 billion to insure some presumably large portion of the banks' real estate exposure and the crash was averted, i.e., the banks continued to leverage up. In Australia I think credits to first time buyers were increased with a similar outcome.

      Complete idiocy.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Underwater Downunder

        Originally posted by oddlots View Post
        I'd love to see Keen vindicated here. Same thing happened in Canada from my understanding: the federal government stepped in after the GFC to pay 15 billion to insure some presumably large portion of the banks' real estate exposure and the crash was averted, i.e., the banks continued to leverage up. In Australia I think credits to first time buyers were increased with a similar outcome.

        Complete idiocy.
        Oh yeah...that's right, I forgot about the first time buyer assistance from government in Oz.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Underwater Downunder

          Firstly these units are in Marybrorough Qld. - Its famous for its old buildings and pubs. You can by a 3 bed home on a good size block for under $300,000. Its also inland from the Ocean and is very hot and sticky in summer and it Floods.It has a very high count of people on Welfare or retired pensioners because of cheaper accommodation costs.
          As for the economy it is a two speed one. I have been offered $1200 / day to work in the Nth west 10 days on 10 off and at the end of shift a flight to your home airport but 15months ago I gave it up, unpacked my bag and I still make over 100g as a superintendent of major projects and home every night. The costs to live remote are astronomical with a beer costing $10 for a 7oz fuel at $10 /us gallon, a bag of ice cost $8. A young man can work two years and get a good stake but most get off work and gamble/ drink it all away. Did I tell you it is like working in Hell with 120F days + flies and boredom after 12hr shift is done.
          I can only talk about Brisbane/ gold coast real estate - It is in a state of denial. Oversupply of new homes and a huge amount of baby boomers wanting to sell and down size but they refuse to lower the price. One property 6 doors down has been to auction 2 times in 4 weeks (owner desperate to sell) but not a bid other than the agents stooge. Frankly it is impossible for anyone on average income to buy a property due to high interest rates 8% floating and charges. You need two income for 30 years and that is not appealing when prices have stalled or are falling. My RE friends are not doing well at all. It will take a big recession and a downturn in China to trip the switch to reality.
          Did I mention its coming, must come and baked in for the new financial year.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Underwater Downunder

            It's my understanding that there are a few Aussie anomolies
            The geographical differences remind me of the 'tulips concentric circles analysis, with the housing bubble moving from urban to distant suburban and then reversing direction during the crash, served with a dash of Thunderdownunder's "Yukon" twist in the NW.

            All real estate is local


            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Underwater Downunder

              redacted
              Last edited by nedtheguy; August 22, 2014, 06:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Underwater Downunder

                hi, i work in financial services. I am qualified to provide financial advice - but do not work in Sales.

                there are a few things I want to add to the comments below/above

                households are saving now more than any time in recent memory.

                anecdotally, I can confirm to you that there are people who are making decent wages, e.g. 65-90 thousand AUD a year who have got $700,000 mortgages, with interest rates being the highest in the OECD and are spending almost all of their income on housing expenses and want to sell. They have extremely high LVR's, up in the 90's.

                The banks in AU continually refer to the cost of wholesale funding being high and have raised interest rates higher than the Reserve Bank of Australia's rate. With the high rate of saving in AU at the moment, it is quite concerning that the increase in deposits is not enough to at least alleviate the costs of funding the mortgages. Dependency on wholesale funding from overseas is extremely high.

                Stress tests on AU banks conducted in 2010 indicated that 'no AU bank would fall below 4% tier 1 capital ratio', with an average fall of 3.1% of Tier 1 capital. The stress test relied upon the fact that housing prices fell by 25% and a 3% contraction in GDP growth, alongside 11% unemployment.

                The Economist calculated that the Australian housing market is up to 56% overpriced.

                Australia has about 2% of the worlds prime real estate for development, yet has a remarkably over-developed Real Estate Investment Trust sector, so large that it forms its own component of the ASX indexes.

                Our unemployment rate is officially 4.9% but the underemployment rate and the unemployment rate from Roy Morgan is closer to 13%. A doubling of the official unemployment rate could possibly put us up in the early-mid 20's for unemployment/underemployment. This would mean draw downs on savings in banks, it would mean more defaults on debts.

                Any more questions or for more specifics, please ask.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Underwater Downunder

                  Originally posted by yourfather
                  households are saving now more than any time in recent memory.

                  anecdotally, I can confirm to you that there are people who are making decent wages, e.g. 65-90 thousand AUD a year who have got $700,000 mortgages, with interest rates being the highest in the OECD and are spending almost all of their income on housing expenses and want to sell. They have extremely high LVR's, up in the 90's.
                  These two statements seem diametrically opposite.

                  Unless, of course, Australia counts 'savings' as the US does: repayment of debt

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Underwater Downunder

                    Time to short the AUD?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Underwater Downunder

                      Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                      These two statements seem diametrically opposite.

                      Unless, of course, Australia counts 'savings' as the US does: repayment of debt
                      Yeah I thought so too - but there's a reason and I'm glad you picked it up.

                      We don't count 'savings' as repayment of debt, but more the amount of cash people who can afford to reduce discretionary spending do so and put it into bank accounts.

                      There are a few reasons why savings rates are higher and the amount sitting in savings accounts is at record levels

                      1) Mum & Dad investors are still not back into the Stock Market, they're still burned from the North Atlantic Great Recession where prices here dropped significantly, so those who fit the older demographic who have paid off their mortgages are not satisfied with getting back into the stock market now channel their retirement savings into cash and lower risk accounts. The Government here also guaranteed all retail deposits with domestic banks in order to 'calm' the market, yet continuously talked up the robustness and stability of the banking system here. So there was an increase in deposits in order to ring-fence peoples retirement savings, and the interest rates in Australia are about 6.5% for a savings account, which is quite attractive to people who have been getting burned in the stock market.

                      2) Discretionary spending in Australia is on the decline and people are saving more because they are concerned about the pop of the housing bubble. Where people can save, they are doing it because they have realised that the mortgage levels people have are unsustainable. The disconnect is when it comes to younger people who are buying properties - generally it costs approximately $500,000 to buy something 'semi-decent' in an outer-lying suburb. Generally the couple will use 1 wage to fund the mortgage and 1 wage to pay their expenses. If these two income households who have these types of debts lose a job, then they're done.

                      People who aren't paying off their $500,000 mortgage at 7% are saving as much as they can to avoid being wiped out when they lose their job and they have enough funding to look after themselves.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Underwater Downunder

                        Nice, I'm getting 0.40% for my FD. No wonder the ASX wants to sell itself to SGX. Cos they can't do public fund raising with 6% saving accounts!


                        Originally posted by yourfather View Post
                        So there was an increase in deposits in order to ring-fence peoples retirement savings, and the interest rates in Australia are about 6.5% for a savings account, which is quite attractive to people who have been getting burned in the stock market.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Underwater Downunder

                          Main newspapers in Australia are reporting that house prices are down 6% in a Quarter.

                          Full article here:

                          http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/mel...-1226039922655

                          interesting quote is:

                          "It has raised hopes for buyers desperately trying to break into the market and will create speculation over whether a crash is coming."

                          Put it this way, I will personally be waiting for house prices to fall 50% before I buy into this crazy market

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Underwater Downunder

                            Originally posted by yourfather View Post
                            Put it this way, I will personally be waiting for house prices to fall 50% before I buy into this crazy market

                            It will definitely happen, China will not be able to keep on building ghost towns and luxury condos that 99% of people cannot afford to stay.

                            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-deserted.html

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