The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

[goodrich4bk]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

I'm not qualified to comment on the science, but I wonder what motivates Rossi if the science is a fraud. If it's a fraud, won't he become the town idiot and lose his job at the University of Bologna? And if it's a fraud, isn't it certain to be proved to be a fraud? If one's answers are "yes" to both questions, why would Rossi expose himself to such a disasterous outcome?

I played this game with my kids a couple of years ago. We sat around dreaming of what powers we would want if we could have any powers we wanted. My high school son wanted to hit 3 point shots from half court. I wanted the power to produce safe and clean energy from the cheapest material imaginable. He looked at me like I was crazy. I told him to imagine what would happen if he had such a power. Within ten minutes he agreed that it was a much more awesome power than a 3 point shot.

My favorite part was when he imagined a trip to the Middle East to demonstrate this power. He decided he would give OPEC five years to reform thier economic and political systems before he unleashed his new invention. I suggested he should just unleash it now and let them reform immediately. It was a very interesting discussion into the wee hours of the morning.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Plus-unity (aka zero-point) energy has been around since Tesla discovered it at the turn of the last century. Tesla died broke.

Google "Tom Bearden" for some good primers on this science.

Over the last hundred years, dozens of inventors have developed different ways of exploiting this new energy frontier. Typically they die under mysterious circumstances or their patents get bought out and put on a shelf.

If you think for a few minutes it's pretty easy to figure out why that has been happening.

[ASH]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

I'm not qualified to comment on the science, but I wonder what motivates Rossi if the science is a fraud. If it's a fraud, won't he become the town idiot and lose his job at the University of Bologna? And if it's a fraud, isn't it certain to be proved to be a fraud? If one's answers are "yes" to both questions, why would Rossi expose himself to such a disasterous outcome?

I had sort of assumed that Rossi is mistaken/deluded rather than an intentional fraud. It sounds to me like he's ascribing to a hypothetical nuclear reaction what is most probably the product of rather mundane chemistry.

[c1ue]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Plus-unity (aka zero-point) energy has been around since Tesla discovered it at the turn of the last century. Tesla died broke.

Google "Tom Bearden" for some good primers on this science.

I googled as requested, and came up with this:

http://www.cheniere.org/correspondence/090902.htm

Incredibly long letter. But it didn't take too long to go completely off the reservation:

The only reason that one does not get transmutations readily in ordinary chemistry is for one reason only: the so-called "coulomb barrier", where like charges repel. Two H+ ions (two free protons), for example, repel each other more and more strongly the closer they get, so unless one uses very high energy on them, one cannot drive them together so that each enters the strong force region of the other, thereby overcoming the Coulomb barrier.
Therein lies both a truth and a lie. It is true that the Coulomb barrier exists as long as time is traveling forward and reactions are proceeding "normally". However, in a time-reversed zone, the reactions are traveling backwards. In such a little temporary zone, like charges attract and unlike charges repel. In that case, the two protons can attract so closely that each enters the strong force region of the other, thereby forming a quasi-nucleus. The other ions in solution outside the TRZ then move to decay the TRZ back to a forward time zone (FTZ), a quark flips in one of protons in the quasi-nucleus, turning it into a neutron, and viola! one has just produced a nucleus of deuterium. In our forthcoming book, we have a chapter on cold fusion, with specific reaction equations for several of the transmutation products usually produced in successful cold fusion experiments. We also introduce "time-charging" (time is just spatial EM energy compressed by C-squared, so it has the same energy density as mass).

A wealth of gobbledybook in just these 2 paragraphs:

1) The coulomb barrier exists, but Mr. Bearden gets around it be reversing time (!)
2) Quarks evidently have charges and change. This is new to me as I always understood different quarks are unique types and indivisible.
3) What exactly is 'spacial EM energy'? And why does C squared fit into this? It appears a pseudo-scientific rephrasing of Einstein's E = MC squared, though not sure how 'compression' differs from 'division'
4) When time is reversed, apparently basic laws of physics also reverse. I suppose that makes sense in a bizarro world kind of way, albeit completely unprovable.

Had to give up a few paragraphs after that.

Since Mr. Bearden apparently controls time, and space, and infinite free energy, it is amazing that he isn't already living in space or is the energy equivalent of Magneto.

Or perhaps he's just a crank.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

If you look for the answers with existing, conventional science, you will very quickly become lost. The primary problem is Ideal Gas Law that states, (for want of simplicity), all atoms of gas are free to move linearly in a straight line without contact with another. Pressure, and temperature are all a function of that liner movement where temperature and pressure are caused by the impact of such atoms on the sides of their container.... or, in the case of Nucleosynthesis by the speed of impact upon each other.

But! .... if Ideal Gas Law was incorrectly defined and the atoms are within an external electromagnetic force field; then all bets are off and imparting energy into that external energy field will have an unknown effect upon the stability of the atoms.

Now you might see why I have, for a long time now, described the potential for a gravity and energy research institute. (by pure chance the web site is coming down today as I am closing all my US operations to save money that I do not have).

Rossi has stepped outside of Ideal Gas Law, and I for one wish him well.

[c1ue]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

But! .... if Ideal Gas Law was incorrectly defined and the atoms are within an external electromagnetic force field; then all bets are off and imparting energy into that external energy field will have an unknown effect upon the stability of the atoms.

This speculation should be trivially easy to test.

The ideal gas law has been challenged unsuccessfully for centuries - a major flaw as described above would certainly earn a Nobel Prize in physics when demonstrated using a bottle of colored gas and a television. In addition I would note that the ideal gas law applies for an ideal gas - of which none exist in reality.

I don't automatically discount assertions which go outside the conventional understanding of physics, but equally said assertions must be provable.

So long as Rossi's invention is a black box without any theoretical support or ability to be duplicated, the burden of proof is heavy indeed.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

You are perfectly correct. But then, why not debate the theories; instead of shunning the proposers?

Ideal Gas law has been comprehensively replaced with a new set of rules that take into account the very simple, but interesting fact, that there is much direct, observable evidence, that gas molecules cannot detach from each other. I have seen a professor in Cambridge remove all his web pages, for example, where he had once stated that he could not offer an explanation for what he was showing his students, yet will not in any way acknowledge the debate that prompted their removal.

On the other hand, the Hubble Space Science Institute, presented with a chapter describing the evolution of the structure of the Whirlpool Galaxy as we see it today, that ended with the hope to produce a large poster to demonstrate the theory, then promptly, for their 15th anniversary, produced images of the Galaxy and the Eagle Nebula, exactly what one would need to produce the poster. http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/arc...eases/2005/12/

Again, every edition includes an image of a planetary nebula by Bruce Balick. July 2004 he and another published a 10 page article in Scientific American; The extraordinary deaths of ordinary stars http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...rdinary-deaths which ended with a statement alluding to a new disruptive theory. When I emailed Balick to ask to talk, his answer was: No time, too busy, good luck!

Now, I have set into motion the sale of my US telecom patents, (and a coincidental request that the UK government help me get at royalties from the US government - which I have reason to believe my request has hit fertile ground), and then the book will be properly published, with some extra chapters. By then, hopefully, Rossi will also have opened everyone's eyes to the potential for new thinking.

Everything you were taught is wrong. Everybody involved with that teaching is refusing a debate..... one can only ask why?

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

This speculation should be trivially easy to test.

The ideal gas law has been challenged unsuccessfully for centuries - a major flaw as described above would certainly earn a Nobel Prize in physics when demonstrated using a bottle of colored gas and a television. In addition I would note that the ideal gas law applies for an ideal gas - of which none exist in reality.

I don't automatically discount assertions which go outside the conventional understanding of physics, but equally said assertions must be provable.

So long as Rossi's invention is a black box without any theoretical support or ability to be duplicated, the burden of proof is heavy indeed.

Part six of the book includes a very detailed set of proposed experiments. One of which was to use a 1 Ton test bar as a means to show that a laser beam, fired underneath the bar would be distorted differently to being fired vertically beside the bar. A bar of Stainless Steel was very kindly donated and then there was so much opposition to the use of the room in the physics dept of the university of Houston forcing the move of the test bar to the engineering dept, I ended up with ten days to implement the first experiment and had insufficient time to complete sufficient to produce a paper. However, we did show sufficient to demonstrate the result for the laser underneath the bar. I have not been able to get back to complete the work and my supervisor has now moved to another university. The hostility to my work in Houston had to be seen to be believed.

Again, in trying to get a debate going on the web pages of New Scientist recently, all the comments were summarily removed by the management.......

Modern science is riddled with zealots that will do anything .... but debate.

[cmalbatros]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

http://www.integrityresearchinstitute.org/ZPENERGY.html & http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1568036565057# & http://www.rexresearch.com/#elmagn

even MIT is beginning to acknowledge Zero Point Energy. Some really freaky things happen in the Quantum physics level that we are only just beginning to understand. For every action an equal and opposite reaction occurs may have to be changed to " complimentary" instead of opposite.

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

http://www.integrityresearchinstitute.org/ZPENERGY.html & http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1568036565057# & http://www.rexresearch.com/#elmagn

even MIT is beginning to acknowledge Zero Point Energy. Some really freaky things happen in the Quantum physics level that we are only just beginning to understand. For every action an equal and opposite reaction occurs may have to be changed to " complimentary" instead of opposite.

The problem is Tom Valone, (indeed, everyone involved with what they call Zero Point Energy), has had to arrive at their thesis while still attaching their thinking to the existing understanding of particle physics.

They are correct about conservation of energy.

But, there are no particles.

Their problem with (or if you like better, their understanding of ), Cassimere Effect, is that they have never earned their living in an engineering environment where anyone will tell them you cannot get two slip gauges to attach together without first if all sliding them together. Ergo, if there are any atoms in the gap, they will not stick together.

There is no pressure from outside; simply that until you remove all atoms from the interface, there is no direct connection between the external energy fields of the surface atoms of each plate. The atoms sitting above the surfaces prevent the attraction.

Example: Take two normal house tiles, the sort you use to decorate your kitchen and try to get the front faces to come close together with some grains of sand on the surface of either one.... The sand grains get in the way. same for plates used in the Cassimere Effect, but on a much smaller scale.

The electron we see orbiting the proton is a part of the structure of the electromagnetic force field of the proton.

The positive electromagnetic force field of the proton extends beyond the orbit of the proton's electron to attach, (as per James Clerk Maxwell's laws of electromagnetism, laid down more than a century ago), to the closest negative, which will be the closest other proton's electron. That attachment is what everyone calls gravity.

The rotation of the atoms cause those attachments to rapidly, (relative to the rotation and thus the temperature), attach and detach relative to distance. The ripples thus caused are what you describe as photons.

Which is also why you can never observe any change to the speed of light simply because you are always observing the rotation of the atoms at the surface of your photon detector.

There is a whole new world of discovery, just beyond the imaginations of conventional science.

There is no Zero Point Energy; electromagnetism fills every part of the universe.

[ASH]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

even MIT is beginning to acknowledge Zero Point Energy. Some really freaky things happen in the Quantum physics level that we are only just beginning to understand. For every action an equal and opposite reaction occurs may have to be changed to " complimentary" instead of opposite.

Zero point energy is a standard scientific concept that has been understood since the early days of quantum mechanics. I wouldn't portray this as something that is only beginning to be understood. It's not particularly exotic -- most college chemistry majors encounter zero point energy when studying vibrational spectroscopy; any physics major encounters zero point energy in core classwork. The general concept isn't controversial in any way -- it plays a significant role in the standard description of several phenomena. For instance, the zero point energy of the electromagnetic field is central to the physical description of how most light sources work (essentially, "spontaneous emission" isn't actually spontaneous, but is actually "stimulated emission" that is stimulated by the zero point energy of the EM field). The zero point energy of molecular vibrations plays a role in various chemical reaction rates.

You get into trouble when you start talking about continuously extracting zero point energy as a power souce. Conceptually, that is a little like trying to get power continuously from magnets. You can physically build optical cavities that have fewer optical modes inside than externally, and hence have less zero point energy inside than out; you can demonstrate what is essentially a pressure differential associated with the difference in energy density. Alternatively, in principle, you could do something so mundane as a chemical reaction in which the reactants have more zero point energy than the products (although I don't have a specific example in mind, I assume this should be possible). But like assembling magnets in an arrangement that can do some work when they are released and allowed to move, these are all one-shot schemes that don't reset themselves.

[goodrich4bk]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

I had sort of assumed that Rossi is mistaken/deluded rather than an intentional fraud. It sounds to me like he's ascribing to a hypothetical nuclear reaction what is most probably the product of rather mundane chemistry.

Thanks. After reading your exchange with Chris below, I suspect you may be correct. Then again, I hope science always remains open to the mistaken and deluded, as that is the door through which every single advance has come.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

If, if it works, continuously; then the first thing to go is the internal combustion engine, (ICE). Why? Because if you have an easy way to produce steam, then we return to a pure steam engine for vehicles. Many will not realise that at the time of the changeover from steam to the ICE and electricity, steam was the dominant source of heat and power in every factory. Steam is very well understood and relatively easy to re-implement. So all those museum pieces demonstrating good old fashioned triple expansion engines will once again become the dominant technology.

Why bother to convert steam to electricity, when you can save on transmission and all the other costs associated with electricity???

So as I see it, this will bring a huge return to old fashioned engineering. A collapse in ICE production. A collapse in oil as an industry and thus the idea..... who needs oilfields?? and all the attendant costs of protecting them.....

Interesting thought, Chris.

Thanks also for responding to the actual question I posed, which was what the investment implications would be if Rossi's device is the real thing. The discussion seems to be mainly about the intricacies of the physics involved, which I was trying to avoid. As I wrote, we all know this is very likely to turn out not to be for real.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

Why bother to convert steam to electricity, when you can save on transmission and all the other costs associated with electricity???

On second thought, though, if it's super cheap to produce electricity, who cares about transmission losses?

Does everybody really want to start having steam boilers around again instead of nice compact electrical motors?

[Chris Coles]

Re: The Rossi Device - Implications for Investment if It Turns Out To Be The Real Thing

On second thought, though, if it's super cheap to produce electricity, who cares about transmission losses?

Does everybody really want to start having steam boilers around again instead of nice compact electrical motors?

That is an easy one to answer; you see the efficiency of a thermodynamic power station is in the order of ~33%. 100% thermal energy in, and only about one third out as electricity. Now add the transmission losses and the motor losses and you get very little of the original energy for final use. However, good old fashioned reciprocating steam engines deliver 100% torque at zero revolutions and, while you still get almost the same original losses at the start, you do not lose the rest. Add the need to reduce global warming and you can easily see why creating huge power stations, when a small local energy system, with no pollution and no towers of lines crossing the skyline, excess energy generated used to heat homes and factories; will become a powerful symbol of the new way forward.