An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

[lektrode]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Palast piece is nothing. This is better and it is not a rant :-)

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...l-on-steroids/

This is a serious as hell problem which is NOT under control. If you are 3000 km away it might not seem so frightening. That changes when it is tens of kilometers and you do not have cash to get away like these boys.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/0...72F04020110316

Hope that last one opens eye as to how this type of situations play out in the end. Sort of explains why real-estate (I mean huge tracts of land) in Argentina was such a hot ticket some years ago when the economy collapsed and US dollar was top dog. Most of us will not be able to do the same.

You don't need a nuc plant next door to have a problem.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...cal&id=6070514

yeah i agree - we/they got us - ALL OF US -in a damn scary sitch goin over there, with _my_ house 1/2 way tween them and the leftcoast (sorry for the earlier rant, but it irks the hell out me when 'journalists' use their positions of influence to push public opinion in their ideological direction (why fox news has become the #1 us-tv-media outlet, not that eye watch them, but you get my point) - and OK, so nuke power is dangerous - tell me what isnt these daze?
what are we supposed to do, huh? from the POV of some of these types, nuthin less than become vegetarian pacifists who ride bicycles from their haybale+stucco house to their .gov social-worker job, with masters-in-arts degrees discussing the cultural implications of ancient mating rituals of aboriginal societies

and when they all swear off driving their cars, using airconditioning in their 21000sqft houses(al gore), eating all-natural-organic-non-gmo fruits n salad greens flown in fresh from chile daily and jetting off to mediterranian cruiseships on vacations in between weekends in their 8000sqft weekend cottages in the hamptons, i'll start believing they arent leftwing hypocrits, who think they have some sort of 'higher authority' to tell the rest of us how we should think/act/vote, never mind what we ought to eat for dinner....

and again, sorry for the rant.

[c1ue]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...l-on-steroids/

This is a serious as hell problem which is NOT under control. If you are 3000 km away it might not seem so frightening. That changes when it is tens of kilometers and you do not have cash to get away like these boys.

More utter nonsense.

The fire was due to an oil leak from a pump. The pumps involved - and there are many, and they are large - again are due to the scale of the heat transfer (cooling) issue.

The fuel rods could catch fire - but let's keep in mind that these fuel rods aren't an active system.

The pools they are kept in are to allow the natural fission to slowly damp out over time - it is not the same as cooling off a reactor that was just shut down.

So the 'nuclear engineer' is technically correct, but his statement is completely out of context.

It would be as accurate to say that al Qaeda flying a 747 into the spent fuel pools would be a nuclear disaster.

True, but highly unlikely.

[reallife]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

It would be interesting to learn if the engineering at the time of planning and construction of the Japanese nuclear plants enduring their prolonged death spiral could have been configured differently. Is it possible that if the site was raised and built on a berm twenty to thirty feet above the flat surrounding area the plant could have ridden out the tsunami? Or is it possible that reinforced earthen berms like those that support highways could have been built around the plants to focus and reflect tsunami waves away from critical structures?

When the tsunami was actually happening, I was watching on live TV shot from the helicopters flying overhead. The rolling tsunami wave full of debris was sweeping relentlessly and seemingly effortlessly across the plain, engulfing everything in its path, it seemed. But one thing stood out to me immediately. When the helo shots panned back away to a wider field of view it was apparent that the tsunami waves were being focused and reflected off the highway berms. I am a sea kayaker and have done some kayak surfing on the Washington coast and in Alaska and Hawaii and have learned to read the waves pretty well. The tsunami waves were following all the rules as they swept across the plain.

The tsunami waves that accompany Japanese earthquakes have been well known and described for centuries. They are nothing new. The plant was engineered for a 7.9 quake. There were two quakes in the range of 7.7 and 7.5 range in the 1930s, not too long before the plant was designed. I would be willing to bet that the design could easily and inexpensively been made robust enough to have withstood even a 9.0 quake and accompanying tsunami. I would be willing to bet that plans for re-engineering berms for tsunami channeling were rejected to protect the short-term profitability of the corporate owners.

That will be one of the most important lessons to be learned from this disaster.

Even if the plant was built as it was, after the devastating tsunami that hit Indonesia a few years ago, I'll bet money that plant engineers re-evaluated the risk and proposed raising berms around these plants for protection. These mega-disasters are not Acts of God. This nuclear disaster could have been avoided by proper engineering before construction or by re-engineering adequate protective measures in the wake of the Indonesian tsunami disaster.

[we_are_toast]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

It would be interesting to learn if the engineering at the time of planning and construction of the Japanese nuclear plants enduring their prolonged death spiral could have been configured differently. Is it possible that if the site was raised and built on a berm twenty to thirty feet above the flat surrounding area the plant could have ridden out the tsunami? Or is it possible that reinforced earthen berms like those that support highways could have been built around the plants to focus and reflect tsunami waves away from critical structures?

When the tsunami was actually happening, I was watching on live TV shot from the helicopters flying overhead. The rolling tsunami wave full of debris was sweeping relentlessly and seemingly effortlessly across the plain, engulfing everything in its path, it seemed. But one thing stood out to me immediately. When the helo shots panned back away to a wider field of view it was apparent that the tsunami waves were being focused and reflected off the highway berms. I am a sea kayaker and have done some kayak surfing on the Washington coast and in Alaska and Hawaii and have learned to read the waves pretty well. The tsunami waves were following all the rules as they swept across the plain.

The tsunami waves that accompany Japanese earthquakes have been well known and described for centuries. They are nothing new. The plant was engineered for a 7.9 quake. There were two quakes in the range of 7.7 and 7.5 range in the 1930s, not too long before the plant was designed. I would be willing to bet that the design could easily and inexpensively been made robust enough to have withstood even a 9.0 quake and accompanying tsunami. I would be willing to bet that plans for re-engineering berms for tsunami channeling were rejected to protect the short-term profitability of the corporate owners.

That will be one of the most important lessons to be learned from this disaster.

Even if the plant was built as it was, after the devastating tsunami that hit Indonesia a few years ago, I'll bet money that plant engineers re-evaluated the risk and proposed raising berms around these plants for protection. These mega-disasters are not Acts of God. This nuclear disaster could have been avoided by proper engineering before construction or by re-engineering adequate protective measures in the wake of the Indonesian tsunami disaster.

Last night on CNN, they interviewed an engineer who worked on a redesign of the Mark 1 reactor. He quit in protest when he realized how unsafe the design was.

http://inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011...ctor-design-2/

Lest we think the tsunami was such a rare event that we can ignore it, keep in mind that a storm surge from a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane is very much like a Tsunami.

The highest storm tide noted in historical accounts was produced by the 1899 Cyclone Mahina, estimated at 13 meters (43 ft) at Bathurst Bay, Australia, but research published in 2000 noted the majority of this was likely wave run-up, due to the steep coastal topography.[12] In the United States, one of the greatest recorded storm surges was generated by 2005's Hurricane Katrina, which produced a maximum storm surge of more than 8 meters (25 ft) in the communities of Waveland, Bay St. Louis, Diamondhead, and Pass Christian in Mississippi, with a storm surge height of 8.5 m (27.8 ft) in Pass Christian.[13][14][15] Another record storm surge occurred in this same area from Hurricane Camille in August 1969, with the highest storm tide of record noted from a HWM as 7.5 m (24.6 ft), also found in Pass Christian.[16] The worst storm surge, in terms of loss of life, was the 1970 Bhola cyclone and in general the Bay of Bengal is particularly prone to tidal surges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_surge

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Historical records for Japan can be found here

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquak...al_country.php

On a global bases this website has good graphics

http://research.dlindquist.com/quake...tyle=nonlinear

[c1ue]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Lest we think the tsunami was such a rare event that we can ignore it, keep in mind that a storm surge from a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane is very much like a Tsunami.

Except that storm surges depend on the tide level, whereas tsunamis are a wave energy phenomenon which builds up on the coast.

Storm surges also are slow in forming, whereas tsunamis are not.

To compare the two is ridiculous.

Last night on CNN, they interviewed an engineer who worked on a redesign of the Mark 1 reactor. He quit in protest when he realized how unsafe the design was.

http://inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011...ctor-design-2/

the problem with this interview, is that what Bridenbaugh is talking about is a loss of coolant.

It is clear right now that there was no loss of coolant, it was a loss of cooling capability.

He even says so: "The cause of the overheating is different at Fukushima than the one we were considering at GE". (Occurs at 2:20)

So he quit over something different than what actually happened.

He also notes that Fukushima #1, Reactor 4 was not even on.

The fire makes no sense in the context of nuclear fission - of course MITNSE is saying it was an oil leak from a pump which caught fire.

Please at least TRY to listen to the links you yourself put up. And listen to the actual guy who might know something as opposed to the moronic CNN spokesmodel.

[c1ue]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

More alarmist crap:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/industrie...pooks-markets/

A European Union official said Wednesday the crisis at the troubled Japanese nuclear plant appears to be spiraling out of control and catastrophic events may be imminent, helping to send already-jittery financial markets tumbling.

According to Dow Jones Newswires, Guenther Oettinger, the EU energy commissioner, said the situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear facility has intensified and catastrophic events are possible in the next hours.

“The site is effectively out of control," Oettinger said, according to Dow Jones."In the coming hours there could be further catastrophic events which could pose a threat to the lives of people on the island."

Oettinger made the comments to a European Parliament committee, but it’s not clear what he was basing his prediction on. Oettinger’s spokeswoman told Reuters he doesn’t have any specific extra information on the situation in Japan.

This moron (Oettinger) has no information, has no experience in this field, and is nothing but a career politician.

He's educated as a lawyer for crying out loud. A clear case of the Peter principle.

[we_are_toast]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

To compare the two is ridiculous.

More alarmist crap:

At least you'er an equal opportunity denialist C1ue.
Not afraid to deny any fact, anywhere, at any time.

If EJ wants to write a book about the influence of the bullhorns, he need look no further than his own forums.
Although there are still some who still try to carry on a factual, reasonable discussion, it seems that
denialism, anti-science, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories are having a greater and greater influence in
the forums.

[c1ue]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

At least you'er an equal opportunity denialist C1ue.
Not afraid to deny any fact, anywhere, at any time.

In fact, you are the equal opportunity alarmist.

I've posted clear and cogent rebuttals to even your own links; clearly you aren't interested in the facts as much as you are interested in scaring people and promoting your own agenda - in this case anti-nuclear energy.

Keep up skimming the internet for sound bites though.

Your so called factual discussion has been very very light on facts. Perhaps you can post some.

[jk]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

i'll believe that tptb are taking all this seriously when the shut down the nuclear power plants still operating in earthquake prone southern california [and transport the spent fuel to a seismically stable site, e.g. the site at yucca mountain, nevada.] i'm not holding my breath.

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

I would just say lets take a deep breath. Few here are experts in this area and we have very "thin" information on what is going on on the ground.

Through logic I would say that this is very serious. My evidence
http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2011/...n_8360541.html

and statements like these

Officials appear to have lost all faith in ability of the plant's operators, the Tokyo Electric Power Company, to handle the crisis.
A Japanese government source told Kyodo news agency that a US spy plane would fly over the facility on Thursday, in the hope that its infrared cameras could provide clues as to what was happening inside the reactor buildings.
Earlier, Naoto Kan, the prime minister, ordered officials to measure radiation levels across Japan and supply information to the public, with details on safe and unsafe levels.
The broadcaster NHK aired what at first appeared to be a weather forecast – with a suited presenter gesturing at the map behind her – but was in fact a guide to radiation readings across northeast Japan and Tokyo.
But while radiation levels in the capital have been higher than usual, hitting 10 times the normal levels at one point, they remained low judged by safety standards, as of Wednesday evening.

If I was on the ground I would be alarmist. Nuclear "garbage" is in a category by itself and we don't need Chernobyl to show this. Just dig in the news and there should be something about contaminated lands in the US due to Cold War research/manufacturing of weapons that for years was covered up.

Then we have this nasty stuff, Pu.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-11386_3-20042852-76.html

Takes very very little to do a lot of damage so this could be a worry. Without data, can not be sure what is flying in the air, but THEY must know.

http://www.alttokyo.com/tokyo-radiation-2/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/geiger-counter-tokyo
http://radiationnetwork.com/