An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

[coolhand]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

coolhand

As much as Americans criticized/disliked Carter, he was the one president that seemed to understand something. It helps to have brains and not just family connection when you are a President.

It was on his watch that Alternate Energy had the ear of the president and not that of EXXON. Research money was there and DOE had clout. Slowly this was however eliminated until the point that if you wanted to study Solar Power at any major university you would need to find your own money to do the research. We wasted 30 yrs. thanks to Big Business.

As for corn based ethanol, do a little reading on theoildrum.com and maybe you will see how this is flawed.

Agree with you on Carter, etc. 100%. On ethanol, if you are saying it is waste from an EROIE perspective, i totally agree. However, from a geopolitical perspective, it is a brilliant 'plan B' to lack of planning for peak oil.

If you didn't plan ahead, just print money, burn up 40% of your corn crop in your fuel tank, & create a more valuable trade position for yourself v. your foreign oil suppliers, & starve the bottom X% of people, thereby reducing emerging market energy demand over time.

I say this half tongue in cheek, half in disgust, but pragmatically, you can't argue with the results - the US Army took 3+ years to find & overthrow Saddam in Iraq, but Ben Bernanke has overthrown 3 Mideast dictators in only 3 months...

[flintlock]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Having a limited land mass in Japan's case I think it should have been moving in a different direction of energy supply as they can not afford to have contaminated land mass like for instance Russia or US. Money plays into this always, but as that time ticks by your odds are going down that "The Event" will not happen soon.

What different direction should they have moved in? THey have no fossil fuels of their own and wind and solar are not legitimate alternatives for an industrial economy, and certainly were even less so when these plants were built four decades ago.

Exactly. Did they really have any other options? They already fought a World War in an attempt to secure their own energy supply. That didn't work out too well either.

I'm not saying things could not have been done better, but really, there are no perfect solutions when it comes to this problem.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

"50,000 Americans die every year in car accidents but no one advocates slowing the speed limit"

coolhand

Plannnig requires thinking more than one "move" ahead. Hence,

this is not a good example.

Why? Because 50,000 people do not leave radiation hazard behind that will be there for hundreds of years, making land useless and causing unknown side effects which will arising with time.

Also there's that little matter of our own free will vs the imposed will of others. Even if others put me at risk by driving fast on the highway we share, I can at least react by reducing my risk by slowing down my own car. But outside of surrendering my share and leaving an area altogether, there's not a lot I can do about a reactor putting me at risk.

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

flintlock

I'm just piss*** that we wasted so much time and money over these 3 decades NOT preparing. That is all lost.

We have MIT, Stanford etc., and other institutions which COULD HAVE come up with something better. I am certain, BUT NO. Those that invested and tooled up to put out product A, did not want product B,C ... to compete with them. I was up-close and personal watching this all happen from the beginning with Solar Power as it was the department adjacent to ours. In less than 5 years or so it basicly evaporated. No research money. But that's water under the bridge, lets watch what happens next.

Germany has announced a detailed review of its reactors !!! The pot has been shaken.

[renewable]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

IMO, this is ultimately the challenge for Peak Cheap Oil - your remaining choices are all varying degrees of less good than the status quo.

Apart from increased energy efficiency.

[coolhand]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Apart from increased energy efficiency.

Agreed - and that wouldn't be a problem other than some comfort trade-offs, except the Western world has built the largest debt bubble in the history of the world based on the assumption of bigger, faster, more to infinity, which requires ever-greater energy inputs, not less as energy efficiency would suggest.

Furthermore, b/c the world's reserve currency & our entire US gov't is built upon this pile of debt, this goes from being an economic to a geopolitical issue.

If the US was built on equity, not debt, no problem - we all just drive smaller cars & live in smaller houses & consume less stuff & go on. But in a debt based system levered at least 12 to 1 & probably more like 20 or more to 1, 5-8% cuts to energy consumption, once rippled thru at 12-20x leverage, wipe out your equity base to zero, creating a few big economic problems to say the least.

So for a purely US-focused policy maker, taking from others in foreign lands will be easier to do from a political standpoint, especially while the soldiers that do the taking for the US are generally the children of the politically weak & unconnected (on average, poor.)

[flintlock]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Oh I agree. People in charge sit on their hands for 30 years while Rome burns. How far along are we since the 70s on an energy solution? Not that far. One thing is for certain, things like what is happening in Japan will wake us all up a bit. But it's about priorities. More emphasis needs to be on LONG term planning and less on the short term cost. I feel we've squandered what opportunities we had during the good times and now will have to face this while going through a world economic depression, deep in debt. What a year already.

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Take it for what its worth :-)

http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info...axpayer-funds/

[Starving Steve]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Have you picked-out your prayer rug or your burka yet?

We don't have decades to waste doing endless planning and design. Who could plan for an 8.9 earthquake and a tsunami at the same time? We don't have many alternatives to atomic power. We don't have oil gushers, at least not on land. We don't have hydro-electric dams. We don't have natural gas because the eco-bunch protests fracking. The tar sands are being protested. And now we may not have atomic power because of worst case scenarios.

We don't have the luxury of time. This planning should have been done in the 1960s, but not now when there are seven-billion hungry people in the world.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

"This planning should have been done in the 1960s, but not now when there are seven-billion hungry people in the world."

Planning without action is futile...

The Zero Population Growth movement began in the 60s when there was plenty of time to plan. I still remember staring in amazement at the population clock at the NY World's Fair themed "Peace through Understanding" as I tried to grasp what it all meant. But I was 7 at the time and easily distracted by cotton candy.

...Action without planning is fatal.~~saying

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Zero Population Growth movement

Ah yes, I do remember that one. Then there was the "Green Revolution" so as to eradicate hunger. Then there was the "Thousand Lights" and tralalalaaa...

I will venture a guess why the Population movement went nowhere, there is no money it.

[lektrode]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Take it for what its worth :-)

http://www.gregpalast.com/no-bs-info...axpayer-funds/

Monday, March 14, 2011
for Truthout/Buzzflash
by Greg Palast

I need to speak to you, not as a reporter, but in my former capacity as lead investigator in several government nuclear plant fraud and racketeering investigations.
.....
....
Here are the facts about Tokyo Electric and the industry you haven't heard on CNN: The failure of emergency systems at Japan's nuclear plants comes as no surprise to those of us who have worked in the field.


['worked in the field' ? what field? an 'investigator' ? or a reporter? he writes like an op/ed guy, in a motherjonesy kinda way, at that... he certainly didnt work in the nuclear field, other than to dig up dirt and badmouth it]

....
.......
..
I get lots of confidential notes from nuclear industry insiders. One engineer, a big name in the field, is especially concerned that Obama waved the come-hither check to Toshiba and Tokyo Electric to lure them to America. The US has a long history of whistleblowers willing to put themselves on the line to save the public. In our racketeering case in New York, the government only found out about the seismic test fraud because two courageous engineers, Gordon Dick and John Daly, gave our team the documentary evidence.
In Japan, it's simply not done. The culture does not allow the salary-men, who work all their their lives for one company, to drop the dime.
Not that US law is a wondrous shield: both engineers in the New York case were fired and blacklisted by the industry. Nevertheless, the government (local, state, federal) brought civil racketeering charges against the builders. The jury didn't buy the corporation's excuses and, in the end, the plant was, thankfully, dismantled.
Am I on some kind of xenophobic anti-Nippon crusade? No.

[no, would say he's on the typically hysterical antinuke crusade...]

In fact, I'm far more frightened by the American operators in the South Texas nuclear project,...

[key word "frightened" - why is it these types are all 'frightened', typically about technology - or politix - they dont agree with, but will jump behind the wheel of their volvos and go hurtling down 2lane highways at 60mph barely inches from a head-on collision without so much as a seconds thot, while teens/20somethings are texting-away in that car that crossed the centerline while he was changing the channel on his car radio - and didnt even notice just how close he just came to SPLATTERING, while the song sings "...sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug..." - FRIGHTENED??? puleeeeeze!]
.....
...
In my New York investigation, I had the unhappy job of totaling up post-meltdown "morbidity" rates for the county government.

[but yet, if this was so "frightening"? why dont he tell us what those rates are?]

It would be irresponsible for me to estimate the number of cancer deaths that will occur from these releases without further information; but it is just plain criminal for the Tokyo Electric shoguns to say that these releases are not dangerous. Indeed, the fact that residents near the Japanese nuclear plants were not issued iodine pills to keep at the ready shows TEPCO doesn't care who lives and who dies whether in Japan or the USA. The carcinogenic isotopes that are released at Fukushima are already floating to Seattle with effects we simply cannot measure.

[apparently WE CAN measure them, as Mr c1ue has already indicated, and so far? de-minimus to zilch, is my understanding - please DO correct me if i'm wrong...]

Heaven help us. Because Obama won't.


[well... there's at least one thing i'll agree with him on....]


Greg Palast is the co-author of Democracy and Regulation, the United Nations ILO guide for public service regulators, with Jerrold Oppenheim and Theo MacGregor. Palast has advised regulators in 26 states and in 12 nations on the regulation of the utility industry.
Palast, whose reports can be seen on BBC Television Newsnight, is a Puffin Foundation Writing Fellow for investigative reporting.

and the bullshitometer reading on this?

The Puffin Foundation Ltd. (501c3) has sought to
open the doors of artistic expression
by providing grants to artists and art organizations
that are often excluded from mainstream opportunities
due to their race, gender, or social philosophy.

please do tell me why such an organization can be counted on to give us OBJECTIVE AND FACTUAL PERSPECTIVE on technological issues?

would much rather hear from guys like barry brook, A SCIENTIST, who then INFORMS, vs attempting to frighten us with info such as:
http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...e-explanation/

[Thailandnotes]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

move to rant and rave

[Shakespear]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Palast piece is nothing. This is better and it is not a rant :-)

http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy...l-on-steroids/

This is a serious as hell problem which is NOT under control. If you are 3000 km away it might not seem so frightening. That changes when it is tens of kilometers and you do not have cash to get away like these boys.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/0...72F04020110316

Hope that last one opens eye as to how this type of situations play out in the end. Sort of explains why real-estate (I mean huge tracts of land) in Argentina was such a hot ticket some years ago when the economy collapsed and US dollar was top dog. Most of us will not be able to do the same.

You don't need a nuc plant next door to have a problem.

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?sec...cal&id=6070514

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Re: An error of seismic proportions - Building Nuclear Plants Close to Earthquake Zones

Ah yes, I do remember that one. Then there was the "Green Revolution" so as to eradicate hunger. Then there was the "Thousand Lights" and tralalalaaa...

I will venture a guess why the Population movement went nowhere, there is no money it.

Not only no money in but "they" took funding out of programs like Planned Parenthood such that instead of helping to reduce the world's population to conserve resources, we even have poor people thinking contraception is sinful so they produce more children who dig them further into poverty. Not all economic cycles make sense. Have more babies; produce more consumers. /threadjack