Scott Walker, Public Servant

[Raz]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

Really?

This is all that you guys have when someone in your camp embarrasses you?

You point fingers at the Democrats.

Is that really all that you have?

What was EJ's point again in his latest commentary . . . something about the media and two-sided debates going nowhere?

Your silence on the topic offered speaks volumes. Are we really this poor?

I am sure that you guys can do better.

If I had unlimited time today I could do a LOT better. And I'm not a Republican.

dcarrigg's cartoon is inaccurate - it assumes that prior to recent times it was only Repukelicans who received lobbyist money.
I suppose the illustrator never heard of the trial lawyers, labor unions, the abortion industry, Hollywood, George Soros, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I was simply applauding the devastating accuracy of the high-jump cartoon.
When your moral target is low enough a midget could jump over it.

And besides that, no one wants a lecture on chastity from a whore.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

dcarrigg's cartoon is inaccurate - it assumes that prior to recent times it was only Repukelicans who received lobbyist money.

Really? I just thought it was a play on what Obama's "Change" message meant. I did not read into it the way you did. Regardless, my point was simply that you can pick your poison. It's 6 in one hand; half-dozen in the other. Either way, monied interests win; everyone else looses.

[bagginz]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant ;_fp 56145_10150302791680467_792990466_15569672_1292354_o.jpg

[dcarrigg]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

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Well done.

[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

The guy behind this is a genius.
...
...
6. Walker is corrupt. [ ? ]

Although early in Walker says they are investigating the Democratic Senators to see if they are committing ethics violations by accepting union funds, ....

oh puleeeze!!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

if walker had been a dem, WE NEVER WOULD'VE HEARD A PEEP OUT OF THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA ABOUT any OF THIS!!!

and _at least_ 50% of us think what he had to say - in supposed 'confidence' to a supporter - IS A GOOD THING -for its a KNOWN FACT that (most) the dems represent the public sector unions vs the greater public at-large - and this represents the ULTIMATE CORRUPTION of our 'government' at all levels!

and can you just imagine what's been talked about tween frauds like barney frank, maxine waters, christopher dodds, angelo mozillo, the entire exec suite of citibank, goldman sachs etc etc ad nauseum!!!

again WE HAVE THE LAMESTREAM MEDIA 'tail waggin the dog' ONCE AGAIN
with the DC aristocracy/administration utterly and _absolutely_ failing to address the issues, WHILE THEY PANDER TO THE SAME SEX MARRIAGE LOBBY

and the media focuses its attention, where???

on a republican guvnah who is _valiantly_ attempting to take on the corrupt to the core public-sector-dem-political-industrial-complex, where he's being pilloried by the left in an absolutely LAFFABLE accusation of corruption!

all i can say is: this mustave been precisely what rome was like toward the end

i hope the liberal/progressives will enjoy what they've 'created' over the last 50 years, because the _results_ of their 'vision of paradise' is coming right at us

i mean, to watch NBC news last night, it was almost surreal trying to understand whats happening to this country - again i firmly believe that if ole george, ben, quincy, patrick and the rest of the signers of the Declaration Of Independence were to come back from the dead? they would burn DC to the ground, and start over.

they must be rolling over and over and over in their graves....

[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

This story is only meaningful to Dems who are salivating for any shread of a reason to hate on Walker.

The guy talked to "Koch" exactly like any politician talks to big donors to his party. A conversation between, say, union leadership and any leading Democrat would sound exactly the same.

In fact, if anything the conversation proves Walker didn't know the Kochs....he had not talked to them before and did not recognize from the voice or the manner of speaking that this was not Koch he was speaking to.

Walker came off fantastically well in the conversation. Really a man of integrity. I think he's got real star potential.

HEAR here!!!

A STRONG SECOND, to that!
couldnt agree more!

[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

yes - this is a more accurate lampoon = 'equal opportunity'

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[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

Some good cartoons.

yeah, huh?
its getting to be quite telling, when 'toonland does a better job than the chattering class of presenting the facts

[charliebrown]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

I am a conservative, and some of the things that gov Walker said are dissapointing. Isn't there an honest man left anymore?
1 - ok; no work no pay
2 - hmm i don't know what that means, kind of creeps me out
3 - fine. we can't afford these pay levels, either except lower levels or we will have to carry on with fewer people.
4 - dirty trick shame shame
5 - dirty trick 2 shame shame
6 - yup investage the missing senators for ethics violations, and walker if you take that trip, you get investigated too.
It is awfully hard to ferret influence out. Is he going to talk about how to sell california cheese, or is he going for
a nice vacation on koch's dime, that will have to be paid back later.

I have trouble at work if I accept a round of golf at a local course from a vendor. Sheesh!

[oddlots]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

I am a fiscal conservative. I think there is a core set of issues about public finance that in reality are objective and really should be viewed as non-partisan. There are left-wing, liberal or socialist governments that have managed the economy competently in various ways. I supported the federal Liberals in Canada when they slashed programs to deal with a ballooning deficit in the early 90s - a deficit created by the Conservatives of Brian Mulrooney that, from my understanding, were appallingly bad stewards of the economy. A decade later the country has benefitted enormously from the efforts of Chretien and Martin (the Liberal economic ministers) as far as I understand it. The unions predictably resisted a lot of these efforts but were ignored. In the end they have ended up better off I think by the later re-expansion of public spending with a healthier economy.

If I had any sense that what's going on in Wisconsin was anything like the above scenario I wouldn't care and I wouldn't (morally) support the unions involved. But I really don't think it is. From what I've read the budget crisis has been "created" by Walker. I heard an interview with a Senator named Risser, the oldest sitting one I believe, who made a case that there were practical ways of dealing revenue shortfalls that had been forestalled by Walker's earlier tax cuts, strategies that had been followed many times in the State's history. His view was that Walker was pursuing a "create the crisis to which you have a ready made solution" strategy, a signature right-wing strategy in my experience of the last 30 years (I think it comes from Lenin via Norquist.) The fact that the bill is to my mind obviously a union busting effort I think just re-inforces the above.

If I thought Walker was honestly trying to protect the state's long-term viability by inflicting a little pain in the short run - as it's being sold - I would be supportive and critical of the unions just as I was in the 90s. I just honestly don't think that's the case. I think he's an ideologically extreme government's-the-problem conservative who is intent on serving business interests at the expense of his constituents interests, as the prank above demonstrates beautifully to my mind.

[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

I am a fiscal conservative. I think there is a core set of issues about public finance that in reality are objective and really should be viewed as non-partisan.

agreed.

There are left-wing, liberal or socialist governments that have managed the economy competently in various ways. I supported the federal Liberals in Canada when they slashed programs to deal with a ballooning deficit in the early 90s - a deficit created by the Conservatives of Brian Mulrooney that, from my understanding, were appallingly bad stewards of the economy. A decade later the country has benefitted enormously from the efforts of Chretien and Martin (the Liberal economic ministers) as far as I understand it. The unions predictably resisted a lot of these efforts but were ignored. In the end they have ended up better off I think by the later re-expansion of public spending with a healthier economy.

debatable... (but i'm certainly not the one to do it, 'above my paygrade' ;)

If I had any sense that what's going on in Wisconsin was anything like the above scenario I wouldn't care and I wouldn't (morally) support the unions involved.

cheers!

But I really don't think it is. From what I've read the budget crisis has been "created" by Walker. I heard an interview with a Senator named Risser, the oldest sitting one I believe, who made a case that there were practical ways of dealing revenue shortfalls that had been forestalled by Walker's earlier tax cuts, strategies that had been followed many times in the State's history. His view was that Walker was pursuing a "create the crisis to which you have a ready made solution" strategy,

yeah - kinda like the new mayor of CHI...
along with his crew in DC and lower manhattan?

a signature right-wing strategy in my experience of the last 30 years (I think it comes from Lenin via Norquist.) The fact that the bill is to my mind obviously a union busting effort I think just re-inforces the above.

this i guess becomes the nub of the argument - WHY DO THEY (public sector employees) NEED 'collective bargaining' when they have the civil service rules/laws?

adding the union heads out n out collusion with the dem wing of most of the blue state legislatures, isnt this precisely why these states in particular are all going bankrupt?

i mean, just think for a second if we were talking about some big private sector industry buying the votes of the political class (oh.. i dunno, oil maybe? or... ughhh how about the FIREmen?) - just think of the OUTRAGE this would engender, esp in the 4th estate (well... i guess i just shot down my own point...)

If I thought Walker was honestly trying to protect the state's long-term viability by inflicting a little pain in the short run - as it's being sold - I would be supportive and critical of the unions just as I was in the 90s. I just honestly don't think that's the case. I think he's an ideologically extreme government's-the-problem conservative who is intent on serving business interests at the expense of his constituents interests, as the prank above demonstrates beautifully to my mind.

all in all, well said and points well taken - i stand enlightened sir - but still not convinced.

tho this is why iTulip is my first and last read of the day and i thank you (all) for the opportunity for discussion = priceless

[flintlock]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

I am a fiscal conservative. I think there is a core set of issues about public finance that in reality are objective and really should be viewed as non-partisan. There are left-wing, liberal or socialist governments that have managed the economy competently in various ways. I supported the federal Liberals in Canada when they slashed programs to deal with a ballooning deficit in the early 90s - a deficit created by the Conservatives of Brian Mulrooney that, from my understanding, were appallingly bad stewards of the economy. A decade later the country has benefitted enormously from the efforts of Chretien and Martin (the Liberal economic ministers) as far as I understand it. The unions predictably resisted a lot of these efforts but were ignored. In the end they have ended up better off I think by the later re-expansion of public spending with a healthier economy.

If I had any sense that what's going on in Wisconsin was anything like the above scenario I wouldn't care and I wouldn't (morally) support the unions involved. But I really don't think it is. From what I've read the budget crisis has been "created" by Walker. I heard an interview with a Senator named Risser, the oldest sitting one I believe, who made a case that there were practical ways of dealing revenue shortfalls that had been forestalled by Walker's earlier tax cuts, strategies that had been followed many times in the State's history. His view was that Walker was pursuing a "create the crisis to which you have a ready made solution" strategy, a signature right-wing strategy in my experience of the last 30 years (I think it comes from Lenin via Norquist.) The fact that the bill is to my mind obviously a union busting effort I think just re-inforces the above.

If I thought Walker was honestly trying to protect the state's long-term viability by inflicting a little pain in the short run - as it's being sold - I would be supportive and critical of the unions just as I was in the 90s. I just honestly don't think that's the case. I think he's an ideologically extreme government's-the-problem conservative who is intent on serving business interests at the expense of his constituents interests, as the prank above demonstrates beautifully to my mind.

I don't know much about the whole deal in Wisconsin, and I really don't care to spend the time finding out, but like you said, there seems to be some question that Walker is playing games here. This type of contradiction in the media happens so often now, I almost never believe the first, second, or even third version of events, because the truth is almost never in any of them. Everything is so skewed by partisan politics, you almost never get the real story. You end up spending most of your time checking out the source rather than reading the story, because blatant lying is perfectly acceptable in journalism now days.

To answer Charliebrown's question, No, there aren't any honest men anymore.

[lektrode]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

I don't know much about the whole deal in Wisconsin,

only that this is truly a watershed event/moment and it _will_ set the stage for likely all negotiations tween the pubsect unions and the rest of us - them and CA, NY, NJ, OH at the other near-bankrupt blue states.

and I really don't care to spend the time finding out, but like you said, there seems to be some question that Walker is playing games here. This type of contradiction in the media happens so often now, I almost never believe the first, second, or even third version of events, because the truth is almost never in any of them. Everything is so skewed by partisan politics, you almost never get the real story. You end up spending most of your time checking out the source rather than reading the story, because blatant lying is perfectly acceptable in journalism now days.

agreed - why i typically skim 'the story' and then read the COMMENTS on it - same with letters to the editor - esp in publications like the WSJ - one typically learns more from the comments and the letters in rebuttal than one gets from 'the story' (and why one learns more about whats _really_ going on in The USA from the op/ed section of the WSJ + The Letters = usually by the people who are _making_ the news, vs those who simply chatter on about it - like ariana huffington, for instance... ;)

To answer Charliebrown's question, No, there aren't any honest men anymore.

certainly not in the lamestream media.... they all grinding some axe, while they simply confuse, deny, obfuscate what is really happening - thank the gods for the blogosphere (and this one in particular)

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

Meanwhile, in Ohio...Wall Street Banker sells fraudulent mortgage backed securities to pension funds. Pension funds lose big while Wall Streets shorts products it sold. Wall Street banker becomes governor demanding workers take cuts and give up collective bargaining rights. If that isn't class warfare, I don't know what is.

Posted on another thread...http://www.democracynow.org/blog/201...street_in_jail

“The [Walker] bill allows the Walker administration, without approval of the Public Service Commission and without a competitive bidding process, to sell off or lease the state's several dozen energy plants to private companies.”

It very possible Koch Industries would end up some of these plants. The Koch brothers contributed $43,000 directly to Walker's campaign and close to a million dollars for add campaigns against his opponents. It is quid pro quo.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/loca...cc4c002e0.html

[oddlots]

Re: Scott Walker, Public Servant

Just came across this article by Matthew Stoller posted by Yves at Naked Capitalism that I think is really salient here:

"Today, the city of Providence, Rhode Island sent out layoff notices to every single teacher in the city. Every single one of them. If you want to understand why this is happening, why wages in the US keep getting cut, this chart from Doug Henwood tells the story.

http://www.ianwelsh.net/wp-content/u...1k-workers.gif

That’s the number of strikes since 1947. What you’ll notice is that people in America just don’t strike anymore. Why? Well, their jobs have been shipped off to factory countries, their unions have been broken, and their salaries until recently have been supplemented by credit. It’s part of a giant labor arbitrage game, that the Federal Reserve and elites in both parties are happy to play. Strike, and you’re fired. Don’t strike, and your pay is probably going to be cut. Don’t like it? Sorry, we can open a plant abroad. And we have institutions, like the IMF, to make sure that we get goods from those factory-countries, and get them cheap."

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/...r-revival.html

It reminded me of this post:

"A recent article in the Wall Street Journal showed that most of the people who lost jobs in this most recent recession found new ones at lower pay. Over a third of these people had to take pay cuts of at least 20%. Pay cuts. We haven’t real sustained pay cuts across a large swath of Americans since the 1930s.
But this isn’t just a tragedy; it is in fact a conspiracy. The people in charge aren’t just failing to prevent this from happening. They want it to happen. You see, pay cuts for workers mean that prices as a whole in the economy don’t rise. There’s less inflation, which means that banks and creditors make more money.
What do I mean by a conspiracy? Well, you can read all about it. It’s right in the transcripts of the Dec. 2005 Federal Open Market Committee, which is the committee of central bankers that run America (more on that below). In that meeting, Dallas Fed President Richard Fisher is complaining about the enormous quantity of Chinese goods flowing into America. He points out that this is creating ‘disinflation’, ie. lowering prices and wages for Americans. Only, he isn’t complaining that there are too many Chinese imports, he is frustrated there aren’t enough imports. Even though China has built special export-only ports to ship goods out of China, he says, the ports at “Long Beach and Northwest” can’t absorb what China wants to sell us, because of work rules (ie. unions). This is a huge problem, Fisher continues, because it is blocking his CEO contacts from outsourcing as much work abroad as quickly as possible. They cannot “exploit China” fast enough."

Snip...

"As late as 2005, Richard Fisher was celebrating this trend. In that same meeting where he complained about too few Chinese goods coming into the US, he bragged about the weakness of one of the most significant employers in the United States: “My most delicious irony is the fact that similarly dated Vietnamese debt now trades on a price basis richer, and on a yield basis lower, than that of Ford Motor Company. [Laughter]”

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/01/...inese-workers/

There are several things that seem really crazy about the obsession that some here have with unions:

It's generally accepted around here that:

- the extreme trend toward mal-distribution of wealth and income away from the majority and toward a tiny minority is a big problem in a market economy that relies on consumer spending to sustain jobs and effective demand
- the economy that has arisen to square this circle - the FIRE economy of cheap credit and it's cheap-smile millionaires (think Mozillo) - is again, generally viewed here as a disaster which is leading the industrialised over a cliff
- it is also generally accepted that the FIRE economy, since it is really just an asset pump and dump scheme masquerading as an economy (sorry EJ - bad summary), is both uniquely reliant on gaining political influence to allow its parasitic activity to occur and uniquely able to pay for this influence since it is vastly more profitable than mere productive enterprise (a "sure thing" as Bill Black would say)
- it is also commonplace here to recognise the enormous influence these interests do wield in both excusing massive fraud (see Matt Taibbi) and ensuring its continuation

And yet a counterweight to all of the above - unions - is somehow seen as the big problem? That makes absolutely no sense to me, especially since, as the chart above shows, their power has been destroyed.

The final irony is that we have people like Andy Grove calling for a massive re-investment in education to facilitate the kind of re-tooling to a TECI economy that will be required since the current "crack up boom" is likely the "last hurrah" of the bullshit finance mirage-economy we've all grown used to.

And yet here we are hating teachers and begrudging them their generally quite meagre salaries... while not a single indictment has been made against any of those who ensured many of these same teachers would lose their homes to foreclosure or looted their pension funds by selling them crap MBS and CDOs.

Des this make sense to anyone here?