The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Because in every other historical situation it has ended badly.

The overthrow of Mubarak isn't going to fix the Egyptian economy. The world economy isn't doing well, and it is ludicrous to think that somehow removing one figurehead will miraculously transform Egypt into a 1st, or even 2nd world nation overnight.

There will need to be a decade or more of sacrifice, of preparation, of planning - and in the meantime there will be huge suffering. Likely even more than the last years of Mubarak.

It is exactly this suffering in which the ideologue arises.

How do you think the old monarchy was originally overthrown?

Well, I think that it got in Nasser's way. This time it's different. Although the military is in power. Sometimes there are rhymes in history. Anyways, it's worth it to just read about 1952:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamal_A...ser#Revolution

Two years later he had the puppet he put in kidnapped and pushed out the Muslim Brotherhood (from substantial power).

Four years later he drafted a one-party constitution and nationalized the canal. This cause Britain, France and Israel to war with Egypt.

Six years after Nasser took over there were the United Arab States:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_States

Three years later, it fell apart, Nasser went more socialist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Socialist_Union

A quick war with Yemen and a war with Israel later, Egypt was thoroughly beaten.
Who knows what will happen now. I don't know if you can simply call the above story 'ending badly.' It just is what it is. It wasn't necessarily that the royal family was overthrown by the mob. They were removed by the military.

We shall see if a strong man arises. One may. Only time will tell.

[dcarrigg]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

While I agree this stuff has been going on a long time, I was referring to the time being when the OVERALL "high ground" in the world was still probably with the USA. Certainly things were on the wrong track by then though. By the mid 60s, there was no longer any doubt. Morality is a relative thing. You have to look at what the other guy was doing to make any judgment on this. Before the 50s we had Hitler, Stalin, etc. Completely different league. That doesn't excuse the stuff you pointed out of course.

True enough. I just think that WWII was the exception, not the rule. We also view it through rose colored glasses. Stalin was an ally. The US committed the only nuclear massacres ever performed. We also fought the Spanish-american war, Mexican-american war, all of the tribal wars...who knows whether or not they were honorable. History paints a rosy picture for the obvious reason. I am not sure who ever had the 'high-ground' anywhere - other than Gandhi.

That being said, don't take this as a necessary argument for pacifism. I just think that if you're going to get in the mud and roll around with the pigs, you're not coming out clean, and you might just be a pig yourself.

[oddlots]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Who said anything about overnight? I've spent time in Egypt. It would never occur to me that anything would happen overnight in that country on a good day.

It's a question of whether it's a move in the right direction. Can anyone really tell what the future will bring? No. So what should guide us?

It seems to me that a movement whose first moves include bringing corruption charges up against billionare officials is moving in the right direction, especially because the country is poor. Not to mention the impulse to demand some basic human rights, like making public officials such as policemen accountable. Again, how is this anything but an entirely laudable goal, especially when it was won from an utterly brutal regime by unarmed, peaceful youth.

Anyone can see that the expectations are very high and so the crash as everyone comes down to earth could be pretty shattering. But I still don't see how this is an argument for people under these regimes to do nothing to redress the regime's crimes. If there's not a future in that there surely is less of one, long term, in passivity.

[Jam]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Oh yes, the big bad old Catholic Church, is that the one who promotes meekness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemy, and other subversive principles. The major reason why liberalism has been able to take root in the west is precisely because the Catholic Church has lost its traditional values.

Whats your beef against the church? What threat does it pose? Would a church/religion that fought its enemies, and didn't turn the other cheek but, fought aggressively back, suit you better?

Chr,

I report the situation as it is, and you make it personal ("Whats your beef against the church?"). Not nice, and I don't appreciate it.

Let me point out that, in general, what an organization says it promotes, and what its actions demonstrate are often two different things. I am sure anyone on this forum can provide numerous examples of it. As for the Catholic Church, the one that "promotes meekness, turning the other cheek, loving your enemy" is the same institution that organized crusades, burned witches, drowned pagans who wouldn't convert to Christianity, suppressed scientific discoveries inconsistent with its doctrine, and had its priests sexually abuse children.

Just like any organization involving people, the Church is not perfect, because people are not perfect. At the same, we know that power corrupts, and, in the case of Poland, a lot of power is concentrated in the hands of the clergy who are not immune from its corrupting effect. In this respect the Church is no different than communism which had its 'priests' (higher-up comrades) abuse the power they had in the name of 'equality.' However, in the case of Church, I find the hypocrisy even more stringing since the Church is supposed to provide a moral authority, and, in the words of the character played by Clint Eastwood in Pale Rider, “You can’t serve God and Mammon, Mammon being money.”

[mfyahya]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

During pitched battle with police on Jan 28, Copts were providing cover for the muslims that stopped to pray.

There are also reports coming out now that egyptian intelligence was behind the recent church bombings http://www.tayyar.org/Tayyar/News/Po...-679657980.htm

[Verrocchio]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Who depends on the media to give insight into news events, anyway? Someone who looks to the media for analyses of the causes and likely direction of the Egyptian revolution (and the revolutions and attempted revolutions in other nations, for that matter) deserves what he or she gets.

Should anyone be surprised that the Western media tend to see events through a cultural lens?

My take on what's happened in Egypt? The status quo has been preserved, which is (and has been since at least Nasser) a military dictatorship. Hosni Mubarak's son threatened the control of senior military officers, who took advantage of the opportunity to remove both Hosni and his annointed heir. They are now firmly in control and will remain so.

By the way, this is not an original interpretation of what has happened, and I didn't get it from the media.

[Sharky]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

As I have posted before, the USA is at once the most important and least dependable ally in this region.

This is a symptom of a larger problem -- a disease called pragmatism. Whatever is deemed to achieve an immediate goal in the moment is good; the long-term consequences or side-effects of those actions are ignored/evaded. Pragmatism is the core philosophy of American politicians.

[Sharky]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

That is why all morality is subjective.

Morality is not subjective. Although subjectivism is currently in vogue, it's a highly flawed way of looking at the world.

Think also over time how something that was once considered moral is no longer thought of as moral. Geographic and cultural influences affect morality as well. If something was immoral it should not matter where you live.

Just because you or your religion or community consider something to be moral (or immoral) doesn't make it moral (or immoral).

True morality is grounded in reality. So yes, if something is truly immoral, then it remains immoral no matter where you live. Morality is independent of culture or geography; it's a consequence of human nature.

What does vary from person to person or community to community is people's ability to accurately discover a code of morality. However, that's really no different than one person being able to identify some law of physics that another doesn't see; what people believe or wish doesn't change reality.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Morality is not subjective. Although subjectivism is currently in vogue, it's a highly flawed way of looking at the world.



Just because you or your religion or community consider something to be moral (or immoral) doesn't make it moral (or immoral).

True morality is grounded in reality. So yes, if something is truly immoral, then it remains immoral no matter where you live. Morality is independent of culture or geography; it's a consequence of human nature.

What does vary from person to person or community to community is people's ability to accurately discover a code of morality. However, that's really no different than one person being able to identify some law of physics that another doesn't see; what people believe or wish doesn't change reality.

Of course it is subjective. Just look at what you wrote.

[Sharky]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Of course it is subjective. Just look at what you wrote.

Sorry you chose to not understand what I wrote.

Just because you want what I wrote to support your view doesn't mean that it does.

Just because someone thinks stealing is moral doesn't mean that it is.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

Sorry you chose to not understand what I wrote.

Just because you want what I wrote to support your view doesn't mean that it does.

Just because someone thinks stealing is moral doesn't mean that it is.

It becomes their subjective morality. It seems to me you are using objective morality. When I said all morality is subjective, I was more commenting on our lack of an objective morality. After all isn't one man's freedom fighter another man's terrorist?

[metalman]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

It becomes their subjective morality. It seems to me you are using objective morality. When I said all morality is subjective, I was more commenting on our lack of an objective morality. After all isn't one man's freedom fighter another man's terrorist?

what happened to the old itulip rules? respect each other... don't to compain about each other... work the problem... our common enemies... ignorance... the bullhorn... firemen...

[cjppjc]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

what happened to the old itulip rules? respect each other... don't to compain about each other... work the problem... our common enemies... ignorance... the bullhorn... firemen...

I thought Sharky and I did not show a lack of respect for each other, just a difference of opinion. I bring little to the iTulip table besides the wish that people would examine their reactions and how they make up who we are.

[jk]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

perhaps someone would be interested in knowing that randy cohen, the who wrote "the ethicist" column at the ny times just retired from that position.

[Starving Steve]

Re: The Yuppie Revolution in Egypt is over, the Islamic one has just begun

I used to condemn Stalin for his crimes, but witness how he and his general, Marshal Zuchov, helped the Allies to win a stunning victory in WWII. So, I have come around to thinking that there are times when pragmatism has to prevail. There are times in history when the end, does indeed, justify the means. It's a moral dilemna, I agree, but the nazies had to be knocked-out of power and brought to justice.

In the Middle East, this maniac running Iran should be taken-out and brought to justice. His clerics should also be knocked-out of power and held for trial......... Maybe Qadaffi in Libya should be knocked-out, but I don't know.

I suspect Qadaffi is going to do what he always has done before in rebellions: to lure his rebels into a trap, and weeks from now, Qadaffi will reappear, stronger than ever. He will then slowly kill his enemies. He is a master at the power game. I suspect Qadaffi will use doubles, who look like him, to convince his enemies that he is dead...... It's his old game of using doubles to deceive his enemies. Then, the real Qadaffi re-appears out of no-where.