Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...treet-20100331


'Looting Main Street"

will probably stand the test of time for it's inside look into a how small cities went bankrupt just doing the normal things cities do...building schools etc.

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Shake, if two tango, should two get bailed-out? Seems to me that the .gov help only goes one direction. Republican or Democrat, you serve the FIRE gods.

The giant sucking sound of the age are the accounts of these creeps that will bleed everyone else dry. The banksters didn't 'earn it.' They reached into your pocket and took it. They sold crap investments that they knew would flop. They bet against them and profited. They falsified mortgage data, pulled accounting tricks that no lawyer in the U.S. would certify, and found someone in Britain that would. They insured each other in a big Ponzi circle. They took over the Fed and the Treasury, bought politicians (all parties), and pushed for deregulation and a low-interest-rate credit feast. They created mortgage markets that everyone in the industry knew were a complete farse for a decade. States started catching up in '03. Fanny & Freddie were complicit. The whole damned federal government was complicit.

I understand your caveat emptor point. I just don't care. There is fault here. This two to tengo crap doesn't fly with me. The longer we act like it was just some accident in which everyone was a victim, the more likely it will happen again. Domestic violence works like that.

I agree with most of what you say. However, making the banks into cartoonish super-villains weakens the argument because it is so over-the-top as to be laughable. Our system is rife with fraud and corruption and the perps must be held accountable. However, the people on the other side of the table, whether they be municipalities, homeowners, or investors, were not all brain-damaged or extra-chromosomal. They weren't forced into signing the papers.

[c1ue]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

They weren't forced into signing the papers.

Yes, it is true no one held a gun to anyone's head to sign up for overly large, complex, and ultimately financially ruinous loans for houses or college.

They had TV/radio/print ads blaring 24/7/365.

They had the various Presidents and members of the federal/state/local government espousing housing and or an education.

They had the National Association of Realtors, Donald Trump, Kiyosaki, etc etc saying housing always goes up.

They had Bank of America/Countrywide, Wells Fargo, Citicorp, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, etc etc buying every loan imaginable to repackage and sell to pension funds and Europe.

They had loan officers forging signatures, lying, and all sorts of other law breaking activities.

They had their friends, their relatives, their parents, their kids, their neighbors all saying the same crap.

But of course the fault is their own.

[Ghent12]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Yes, it is true no one held a gun to anyone's head to sign up for overly large, complex, and ultimately financially ruinous loans for houses or college.

They had TV/radio/print ads blaring 24/7/365.

They had the various Presidents and members of the federal/state/local government espousing housing and or an education.

They had the National Association of Realtors, Donald Trump, Kiyosaki, etc etc saying housing always goes up.

They had Bank of America/Countrywide, Wells Fargo, Citicorp, Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, etc etc buying every loan imaginable to repackage and sell to pension funds and Europe.

They had loan officers forging signatures, lying, and all sorts of other law breaking activities.

They had their friends, their relatives, their parents, their kids, their neighbors all saying the same crap.

But of course the fault is their own.

If they were defrauded, then the fraudsters must be jailed. Otherwise, yes, buyer beware. Unfortunately, the fraudsters will not be jailed and a great amount of sympathy still exists for financial idiots.

[FRED]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

I agree with most of what you say. However, making the banks into cartoonish super-villains weakens the argument because it is so over-the-top as to be laughable. Our system is rife with fraud and corruption and the perps must be held accountable. However, the people on the other side of the table, whether they be municipalities, homeowners, or investors, were not all brain-damaged or extra-chromosomal. They weren't forced into signing the papers.

Of possible interest.

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Of possible interest.

Thanks, Fred. However, I'm afraid I don't buy EJ's "we're all manipulated victims" take on the issue. His analogy to cigaret smoking is especially weak. People smoked long before Madison Avenue and mass advertising existed and his contention that "most Americans don't know this about their health insurance industry for the same reason most did not know from the early 1920s until the 1980s that cigarette smoking will kill you" is just plain wrong. People knew back in the 19th century that smoking was bad for your health absent any epidemiological research.

[gwynedd1]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Presidents day is a great day to protest for government employees. The tax base might have a counter rally were it not for the reason they are at work.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Thanks, Fred. However, I'm afraid I don't buy EJ's "we're all manipulated victims" take on the issue. His analogy to cigaret smoking is especially weak. People smoked long before Madison Avenue and mass advertising existed and his contention that "most Americans don't know this about their health insurance industry for the same reason most did not know from the early 1920s until the 1980s that cigarette smoking will kill you" is just plain wrong. People knew back in the 19th century that smoking was bad for your health absent any epidemiological research.

I generally like your posts Master Shake, but both you and EJ are falling into the liberal trap (although you're more in the traditional Calvinist camp).

The truth is you need an IQ of at least 100 to properly understand contracts. That excludes probably about 60% of the US population, at least.

The sad reality is most people who signed on the dotted line for that mortgage really couldn't understand what they were signing.

You seem to believe something like caveat emptor, or maybe that they were too lazy to learn. EJ probably thinks society is at fault for not teaching them. The problem here is a lack of recognition of the fact intelligence is biological in origin, and we must make accommodations for different people of different ability. This is a highly political issue in the US due the fact certain ethnic groups have much lower levels of intelligence, but this is an example of having to move beyond the fiction of biological egalitarianism. For someone who is borderline retarded, which is probably about 15% of the US population, maybe as high as 20%, it's ridiculous to expect them to understand these things. Hell, even I feel like I could use an Adderall when I sit down to read a contract, and sadly real estate contracts are a not insignificant part of my job.

Anyway, people from the dawn of civilization until 40 years ago accepted as fact that intelligence is hereditary, particularly as animal husbandry makes this very clear rather easily. It is funny how fictions can infect a society, but the madness of biological egalitarianism is the most destructive.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Thanks, Fred. However, I'm afraid I don't buy EJ's "we're all manipulated victims" take on the issue. His analogy to cigaret smoking is especially weak. People smoked long before Madison Avenue and mass advertising existed and his contention that "most Americans don't know this about their health insurance industry for the same reason most did not know from the early 1920s until the 1980s that cigarette smoking will kill you" is just plain wrong. People knew back in the 19th century that smoking was bad for your health absent any epidemiological research.

from 1947

Smoke! Smoke! Smoke!(That Cigarette)

Now I'm a fellow with a heart of gold

And the ways of a gentleman I've been told

Kind-of-a-guy that wouldn't even harm a flea

But if me and a certain character met

The guy that invented that cigarette

I'd murder that son-of-a gun in the first degree

It ain't cuz I don't smoke 'em myself

and i don't reckon that it'll hinder your health

I smoked 'em all my life and I ain't dead yet

But nicotine slaves are all the same

at a pettin' party or a poker game

Everything gotta stop while they have a cigarette

CHORUS

Smoke, smoke, smoke that cigarette

Puff, puff, puff until you smoke yourself to death.

Tell St. Peter at the Golden Gate

That you hate to make him wait,

But you just gotta have another cigarette.

Everyone I knew knew that smoking was bad for you including my wife, my brother in law and a close friend who all eventually died of lung cancer.

[Ghent12]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

I generally like your posts Master Shake, but both you and EJ are falling into the liberal trap (although you're more in the traditional Calvinist camp).

The truth is you need an IQ of at least 100 to properly understand contracts. That excludes probably about 60% of the US population, at least.

The sad reality is most people who signed on the dotted line for that mortgage really couldn't understand what they were signing.

You seem to believe something like caveat emptor, or maybe that they were too lazy to learn. EJ probably thinks society is at fault for not teaching them. The problem here is a lack of recognition of the fact intelligence is biological in origin, and we must make accommodations for different people of different ability. This is a highly political issue in the US due the fact certain ethnic groups have much lower levels of intelligence, but this is an example of having to move beyond the fiction of biological egalitarianism. For someone who is borderline retarded, which is probably about 15% of the US population, maybe as high as 20%, it's ridiculous to expect them to understand these things. Hell, even I feel like I could use an Adderall when I sit down to read a contract, and sadly real estate contracts are a not insignificant part of my job.

Anyway, people from the dawn of civilization until 40 years ago accepted as fact that intelligence is hereditary, particularly as animal husbandry makes this very clear rather easily. It is funny how fictions can infect a society, but the madness of biological egalitarianism is the most destructive.

An IQ of 100 is the median by definition, so exactly 50% of Americans have that score or higher.

The reality is that personal responsibility is a powerful thing. Without it, you become just another idiot man-child or woman-child looking for sympathy for your own self-induced misfortunes. Without personal responsibility, one can justify the murder of their offspring not yet free of their mother, can look to the productive for aid when they sign away their wealth, and so forth; all because they lack the integrity to be held responsible for their own actions.

You seem to believe that hundreds of millions are too stupid to sign contracts. It would appear, however, that they are too irresponsible rather than too stupid. As a society, we are becoming more and more intelligent--IQ tests drift three points per decade, requiring periodic recalibration to reset the median at 100. We have evidently become much less responsible than we once were. Our civilization is rife with moral hazards that contribute to the decrease in personal responsibility--everything from socialized police, fire protection, various government insurance like the FDIC, even innocuous things such as vast improvements in technology and especially medicine; all of these have made it so much easier and even "trendy" to be an irresponsible person.

Are you a victim of your own irresponsibility? Pregnant? Your 52" LCD TV in the living room got stolen because you left your windows open and the TV box in laying beside the trash can while you went on vacation? Your bank went bankrupt because it was playing fast and loose with its depositors' money? Broke your leg because you were imitating the show Jackass? Not a problem nowadays...

Sometimes I feel like I need a blog...

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

http://tobacco.harpweek.com/

[charliebrown]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

BK brings up a good point about perks of state workers. I have poor job stability and none of these perks. don't take vacation lose it, health care premiums are 240 month moderate deductables apply, 401k plan has no match.

Although there is a bigger fight to fought between the bankers and the public, I don't know how to do that. I would support forensic accounting of all banks, especially ones that had to be bailed out. If there is even a wiff of malfesance, then the bankers are doing the perp walk. I have written multiple letters to my reps and senators regarding the corrupt finance sector. I feel they have fallen on death ears. When a bank is bailed out, all the executives are fired regardless of wrong doing or not. Glass-stegal must be re-implemented so small time depositors are not a risk for investment bank excess. A bank failure will be met with instant wipe-out of share holder equity, and a hair-cut to the bond holders, if there is any capital left.

In the mean time with the private/public debate, the big issue is public unions are paid for by the taxing power of the municipality or state. If the state over promises or overpays these people, then they have the power to take my money confiscate assets or throw me in jail. Like I said in my orignal post. A few more tax increases and the people on the margins are going to lose there homes. And these are not people living recklessly. Who would have forecast in 2001, that
taxes would have risen from 9% of gross to 15% of gross and no wage increases. With the other essetinals of food, energy, utilities etc rising too, its getting tight down here.

When I said I have not seen a raise in 10 years this also refered to many of my personal friends as well. Many have be laid off and found new jobs paying 10 - 20% less than their previous ones. Ones who have kept there jobs have little or no raises.

[charliebrown]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Can you clarify what you mean by the governor will lower the taxes on bankers by 10%??
Is there some specific item in the legislation that says or implies this?

Do you have any suggestions on beating the bankers.
I have written letters, and moved my money from tbtf banks to credit unions.
And when the bank officer asked why I was closing my account at chase and moving it, I said because you are "dirty"
she looked at me like she had no idea what I was talking about. Honestly she looked dumb founded. How can a branch
manager be so clueless.

[don]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Food Break-

Pizza: Any Way You Slice It

Egyptians Order Pizza for Wisconsin Protesters


In an act of intercontinental solidarity, an Egyptian has ordered a pizza for Wisconsin protesters, reports Politico. The call from Africa is just one of many streaming into the Madison, Wisc., pizza parlor Ian's from all over the world. So far, people from 12 countries and 38 states have rung up looking to help get free pizza to the Wisconsin protesters clustered in the Capitol. On Saturday, Ian's distributed more than 1,000 free slices and sent 300 pizzas to the Capitol. The trend continued on Sunday, as staff member fielded calls from as far away as Turkey, Korea, Finland, China, and Australia. The trend began when a mother of a University of Wisconsin student called in offering to donate $200 to feed the people occupying the Capitol. The pizza chain's postings on Twitter and Facebook soon led to so many donations that they had to shut down on Saturday night.

[flintlock]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Who loaded up the cities and states with debt? The cities and states had no part in that? They were forced to load up with debt? Ditto for the households with mortgages. No love for the banksters, but it takes two to tango.

That's the real "inconvenient truth". Like you mentioned on another thread. People want a simple binary answer. Keep it simple. Good vs evil. Bad bankers, good people. As if there can't be bad vs worse. I railed against local spending on ridiculous luxury projects years before any economic collapse. But nobody wanted to hear that then. A LOT of people are selfish assholes. Some are just gullible. Some stupid. But there is a whole lot of blame to go around and it's not as simple as some would try to play it. All I know is that all this UNION brotherhood and solidarity flies out the window once talk of cut backs comes up. It's like a Walmart at 11.59pm on the day before Black Friday. They have to have everything, regardless if a lot of their less senior members get trampled in the process. Sure, maybe they are "owed" something. Newsflash: Politicians lie! But the REALITY is the state is broke and some poor slob is going to lose his job and get NOTHING. So where's all the brotherhood in that? I'm not necessarily against the Union here, just pointing out that most of their BS is just BS. Its mostly about getting yours and thats it.

And I agree that the Banks, if anyone, should also be getting a visit from the mob. But that doesn't give everyone else a free ticket out of this mess. More focus should be on identifying the culprits and trying to figure out how to get some of the loot back, if that's even possible.