Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

[BK]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

What is the source of the Data? There doesn't seem to be any attempt to account for the Public Sector Defined Pension Plan, life-time health care, generous vacation policy in Public sector jobs, zero- minimal cost of health coverage while working, Generous sick time off (including the ability to sell your unused sick time back to your employer when you retire)?
Can you tell me how the Author of the Data Table accounted for the additional benefits of the Public Sector employee?

[we_are_toast]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

mean wages for all occupations in Wisconsin = $40,190
mean wages for Secondary school teachers = $49,400
Boilermakers = $59,660
Carpet installers = $44,290
Construction laborer = $40,410
Drywall installer = $45,540
Plumber Pipefitter Steamfitter = $60,110
Loan counselor = $44,900
Loan officer = $61,580

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_wi.htm#25-0000

I have 2 brothers who live near Madison and have attended the rallies whenever they could. One works for the state as a food inspector. He makes roughly $35,000/year and had his salary cut by almost 10% last year through required furloughs.

The unions offered to concede fully on the economic demands of the Governor and the Republicans, they refused. This has nothing to do with how much money people are making, this is all about the Oligarchy making sure workers shut up and do as they're told. Even though the police and fire unions were exempted, they are out in force supporting the state and municipal workers. They know they are next on the Governors hit list. Even the local small businesses are out supporting the demonstrators. They say everytime there is a furlough day, their businesses dry up and they're in deep trouble.

By going after the govment, The Governor and the Republicans are doing nothing less than paying off the Oligarchs that funded their campaigns. Just another Oligarchical manipulation of the public to steal more scraps from the middle class.

[BK]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

The best thing for Public school teachers in the last 30 years is that the average Public School graduate math skills are awful.

As a result Very few voters understand the power of Compounding and Voters routinely grant Teachers 1-3% pay increases in order to keep pace with Inflation.
The result are school systems that require Way too Much cash to e able to function. It would be nice to over pay teachers - the only proble is you need lots and lots of teachers to run a school system.
The Current Pay Packages are unsustainable because Residentail Homes don't produce Income Streams - so, you can't raise Property Taxes forever - .....

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

I heard that the teacher getting 57K in salary also got over 43K in bennies, for a total of over 100K.

Actually, they're getting $74,056 in average with a masters in total comp in the public sector in WI. Most of them are probably teachers. That's the difference between real math and pundit math. One is precise and used as a tool for understanding. The other is imprecise and used to justify faith. I never believe anyone that spits out numbers that are just too round, too pretty, and too perfect.

If you want to get mad at big government, get mad at this: http://www.ny.frb.org/markets/opolic...cy_101103.html. Ask yourself who gets a cut every time they do this? That's the real money. That's the real issue. It's 197 times the total amount of Wisconsin's budget deficit. The brokerage fees in the next two quarters alone will total more than all of WI's debt. Ask yourself why, in an age of Treasury Direct and Automated ClearingHouse (ACH) Payments, the Fed can't buy Treasuries directly from the department at market rate. Here's the answer. This is the real .gov spending. Get your head in the game.

To use round numbers and play with emotions instead of facts:
Say you are correct. Say that there are a couple of teachers making over $100k with benefits. Say that you only make $50k. If you fight to take their $100k away, and cut it down to $50k, you are starting class warfare within your own class. A house divided against itself...is a very foolish thing indeed.

There are reasons many traders read The Art of War. You should read it too. Here's an excerpt. Think of how it might apply in this case.

If your enemy is secure at all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him. If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them. If sovereign and subject are in accord, put division between them. Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.

Then read this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042805753.html. And read this: http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/...ll-street-talk. While you were bickering over a teacher's health plan, they just bought both political parties and only had to spend $1.15M for 9 months to make billions. Know your enemy (hint: it's not the fireman, teacher, car salesman, or restaurant owner).

If Lloyd Blankfein still confuses you then just understand Lloyd Banks. The game's the same.



Banks just doesn't try to hide it. Blankfein on the other hand...

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

This has nothing to do with how much money people are making, this is all about the Oligarchy making sure workers shut up and do as they're told. Even though the police and fire unions were exempted, they are out in force supporting the state and municipal workers. They know they are next on the Governors hit list. Even the local small businesses are out supporting the demonstrators. They say everytime there is a furlough day, their businesses dry up and they're in deep trouble.

By going after the govment, The Governor and the Republicans are doing nothing less than paying off the Oligarchs that funded their campaigns. Just another Oligarchical manipulation of the public to steal more scraps from the middle class.

Exactly, Toast. The financiers want the middle class fighting each other for scraps whilst they abscond with the feast.

I wish your brother the best through this thing.

It's not over yet. They'll try it in Ohio next. Many more people will be hurt. The middle class will take many more hits on the chin before this is over. Stand strong.

[we_are_toast]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

An excellent debunking of the falsehood that WI public employees are overpaid and the cause of the crises by Yves Smith at nakedcapitalism.

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/...udge-woes.html

Here's a nice chart that is presented courtesy of Menzie Chinn at Econbrowser. It includes full compensation.



As you are suggesting dcarrigg, if you think this is about government VS the public, you're not looking deep enough.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

De-flation might mean LOWER wages, SMALLER compensation packages, LOWER prices for food, LOWER home prices, LOWER land prices, LESS spending, SMALLER deficits, SAVINGS for the future, LESS consumption, and ultimately LOWER utility bills, ultimately budget SURPLUSSES. And if this is what de-flation is all about, then I have no sympathy for the public employees on-strike in Wisconsin. Everyone must give-back; it is called, austerity.

This is not a class warfare thing. EVERYONE and every business will "tighten their belt".

[metalman]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

De-flation might mean LOWER wages, SMALLER compensation packages, LOWER prices for food, LOWER home prices, LOWER land prices, LESS spending, SMALLER deficits, SAVINGS for the future, LESS consumption, and ultimately LOWER utility bills, ultimately budget SURPLUSSES. And if this is what de-flation is all about, then I have no sympathy for the public employees on-strike in Wisconsin. Everyone must give-back; it is called, austerity.

This is not a class warfare thing. EVERYONE and every business will "tighten their belt".

yep... right after the thugs...



..who made a fortune loading up the cities, towns & states with debt...



...& households with mortgages...



...then crashed the economy...



...& killed off the tax revenues states & towns need to pay off the debt...



...what about them?

$$$ for the banksters... austerity for the non-participants.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

yep... right after the thugs...



..who made a fortune loading up the cities, towns & states with debt...



...& households with mortgages...



...then crashed the economy...



...& killed off the tax revenues states & towns need to pay off the debt...



...what about them?

$$$ for the banksters... austerity for the non-participants.

+1

Here's the short version of what's going on if the charts were not clear enough

[don]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

How lucky are we here on the 'tulip to have our very own race to the bottom Starving Steve.

[we_are_toast]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

yep... right after the thugs...



..who made a fortune loading up the cities, towns & states with debt...



...& households with mortgages...



...then crashed the economy...



...& killed off the tax revenues states & towns need to pay off the debt...



...what about them?

$$$ for the banksters... austerity for the non-participants.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Steve, we could play a game with this. You name me a country in the world population 30M or more (besides China and Iran) and I'll:

1) Name you a bank that made record profits in 2010,
2) Show you between 5% and 25% unemployment (mostly depending on how they count it), and
3) Show you debt to gdp ratios of 30%-200% (depending on how they count it and whether it's a federal state).

It works for every country that is not currently having a commodities boom. 1 and 2 hold true for Nigeria, Russia and Australia, but 3 does not. Otherwise, it works across the board. Try it.

[Master Shake]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Who loaded up the cities and states with debt? The cities and states had no part in that? They were forced to load up with debt? Ditto for the households with mortgages. No love for the banksters, but it takes two to tango.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Who loaded up the cities and states with debt? The cities and states had no part in that? They were forced to load up with debt? Ditto for the households with mortgages. No love for the banksters, but it takes two to tango.

Shake, if two tango, should two get bailed-out? Seems to me that the .gov help only goes one direction. Republican or Democrat, you serve the FIRE gods.

The giant sucking sound of the age are the accounts of these creeps that will bleed everyone else dry. The banksters didn't 'earn it.' They reached into your pocket and took it. They sold crap investments that they knew would flop. They bet against them and profited. They falsified mortgage data, pulled accounting tricks that no lawyer in the U.S. would certify, and found someone in Britain that would. They insured each other in a big Ponzi circle. They took over the Fed and the Treasury, bought politicians (all parties), and pushed for deregulation and a low-interest-rate credit feast. They created mortgage markets that everyone in the industry knew were a complete farse for a decade. States started catching up in '03. Fanny & Freddie were complicit. The whole damned federal government was complicit.

I understand your caveat emptor point. I just don't care. There is fault here. This two to tengo crap doesn't fly with me. The longer we act like it was just some accident in which everyone was a victim, the more likely it will happen again. Domestic violence works like that.

[Thailandnotes]

Re: Wisconsin is the new Egypt?

Ditto for the households.

Why Santelli really disgusted me...

I always go back to this: It used to be almost impossible to get any kind of a loan in your 20's. When you showed up for college orientation, you didn't run a gauntlet of tables offering you credit cards. If you had a job at 25 and wanted to buy a new car, it was tough or impossible unless your parents co-signed. You had to save and save and save to have enough money for a down payment on a house. People loaning money made damn sure they would get it back. When this became absurdly restrictive, S&L's were born and they worked beautifully until they were deregulated. Fast forward to the housing bubble...Banks loaning money couldn't care less if the loan is repaid because it's immediately sold into a black hole.

Looking at local governments with an eye for investing in municipal bonds, it's clear cities and counties run a very wide gamut from frugal/responsible to out of control.