Debt now equals total US Economy

[charliebrown]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Regan's prosperity was built on debt.

On capital gains, it might be true that the rate is lower, but since the 60's there has been persistant inflation
ergo a phantom tax on capital gains. I have read something about "founders" shares. These are shares of a start up, or
maybe someone who is willing to pony up cash and lock it up for 10 years or more. Maybe long term capital gains
just need to be really long term and not 1 year. I would also support a tobin tax.

If the marginal rate were cranked back up on that .01% group how much revenue would that really produce?
Yes they are filthy rich, but there are not very much of them. I suppose there are roughly 10,000 returns with this level of income.

As for marginal rates yes they are lower than in the past on the middle class but as I mentioned in an above post, other taxes and fees have moved in to fill the gap. When I was a young lad, My state income tax rate was 2%, now it is 5%.
Because housing prices inflated, My 3K prop tax bill has nearly trippled in 20 years. sales tax has moved from 5% to 8%, and the list of items that are subject to tax are widening. There were no toll ways, license plates were $18, etc. etc.
Raising marginal rates on the middle class would suffocate them.

I really think that defense ought to be really whacked, however maybe the flow of imported oil would be shut down,
and all hell would break loose.

As for medicare, what are the real reasons costs are so high? With my comment about a 100k hip replacment, a visitor from Thailand said it was 10K there. If we can cut the fat by half, we can have affordable good service. In June of 2010 I had an emergency appendectomy. 1 day in the hospital, 40K. Does my 40K cover multiple people going through the system
who pay nothing? Why does it cost 1/10 as much in Thailand? If we can answer that truthfully, maybe we can save ourselves.

Although Peak Oil I think is the other wild card in this perfect storm.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, Regan's prosperity was built on debt.

On capital gains, it might be true that the rate is lower, but since the 60's there has been persistant inflation
ergo a phantom tax on capital gains. I have read something about "founders" shares. These are shares of a start up, or
maybe someone who is willing to pony up cash and lock it up for 10 years or more. Maybe long term capital gains
just need to be really long term and not 1 year. I would also support a tobin tax.

If the marginal rate were cranked back up on that .01% group how much revenue would that really produce?
Yes they are filthy rich, but there are not very much of them. I suppose there are roughly 10,000 returns with this level of income.

As for marginal rates yes they are lower than in the past on the middle class but as I mentioned in an above post, other taxes and fees have moved in to fill the gap. When I was a young lad, My state income tax rate was 2%, now it is 5%.
Because housing prices inflated, My 3K prop tax bill has nearly trippled in 20 years. sales tax has moved from 5% to 8%, and the list of items that are subject to tax are widening. There were no toll ways, license plates were $18, etc. etc.
Raising marginal rates on the middle class would suffocate them.

I really think that defense ought to be really whacked, however maybe the flow of imported oil would be shut down,
and all hell would break loose.

As for medicare, what are the real reasons costs are so high? With my comment about a 100k hip replacment, a visitor from Thailand said it was 10K there. If we can cut the fat by half, we can have affordable good service. In June of 2010 I had an emergency appendectomy. 1 day in the hospital, 40K. Does my 40K cover multiple people going through the system
who pay nothing? Why does it cost 1/10 as much in Thailand? If we can answer that truthfully, maybe we can save ourselves.

Although Peak Oil I think is the other wild card in this perfect storm.

Without going through the whole post, I just want to add that I had an emergency appendectomy 8 years ago. It was 16k. That's about a 12% annual compounded increase in costs.

[flintlock]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

My emergency appendectomy was 40 years ago. Cost? Probably so little it made not a dent in my parents budget. Something has changed. Figuring out exactly what is the key to fixing this mess. My guess. Lawsuits. More deadbeats who have to be paid for. A general "cost doesn't matter" attitude. EZ credit. The nature of insurance, where once paid for, people feel the need to maximize their use of health care. I'm sure there are many more.

[charliebrown]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

A few years ago, my mother-in-law presented the hospital bill for my wife's birth to her as a momento. it was 1965, It was hand written on a tear off form from a 4"x6" pad. You know like a guest check from a small diner. It was roughly 300.00.
The family paid out of pocket for it. I think she was in the hospital for 3 days. (My mother in law is/was a tough bird), I think most ladies stayed in 5 days in that era.

2000, My son's birth, normal delivery 20K. Hey look at that ... Again close to 12% y-o-y increase for 35 years. When my company went chapter 7 two weeks after this and I found out I really didn't have any insurance, I had to pay a lot of this bill out of pocket. I argued every line item. I asked for the detail charges. It was roughly 3 pages single spaced of items. My wife's stay was around 2 days.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

Bush was a free-spender. Obama is just as bad a free-spender. Under Bush we constantly heard abot all tis free spending from the liberals (who all of a sudden seemed conservative). Now they are so strangely silent.

The problem isn't Bush or Obama or Clinton or Reagan or Carter or Nixon or whomever. They wouldn't have won election if they didn't do just what the people as a whole wanted. Even a far-leftist like Obama couldn't go whole-hog implementing the liberal fantasies he wanted to implement- and that was with a huge House Dem majority and a filibuster-proof Senate. Mainly, the Presidents and the political parties are figureheads. One way or another, the people get what they want, which is lots of "free" stuff from the government without the taxes needed to pay for it. No use bitching about Republicans or Democrats. Bitch about the mindset of the people. Actually, don't bother - because it is going to evolve however it's going to evolve and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. It's going to go through cycles and it's going to play out all the normal human weaknesses and impulses and no Affirmative Action hire with a messiah complex (nor anyone else) is going to be able to significantly change the evolutionary path the people of the nation are on.

The only sensible thing we as individuals can do is try to understand the mindset, try to reasonably predict the direction it will take based on the similar situations that have repeated all through human history, and make our plans accordingly. It's as big a waste to expend emotional energy on anger about Democrats or Republicans as it would be to be angry at the weather. It's too big and beyond the control of anyone, even The One.

[photon555]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

Well I am sick of libs and democrats talking about how the rich get such a good break on taxes. What they mean is the upper middle class making 250K plus. The truly rich don't pay taxes like the rest of us. Remember Teresa Heinz and John Kerry's tax return when they had to make it public? They paid less than 14% on income of about 25M.
So here's my challenge: Go ahead and tax the wealth. Not the income; tax the concentrations of wealth, where ever they are: in family fortunes, in tax exempt foundations, in corporations. I am sure a workable schedule could be arrived at that would prevent small business owners and farmers from losing their capital/land, while at the same time returning capital to circulation. The schedule could be adjusted for the size of the entity such as large corporations, but I would argue for a bias towards firms no larger than about 5K to 10K. This would discourage mergers and promote smaller more efficient economic units.
While we're at it, we need an amendment to repeal the income tax and set limits on a national sales tax. This would save multiple billions in regulatory costs and finally capture a fair return from the gray economy.
We must destroy the entitlement mentality. Anyone receiving charity - which is what welfare/assistance is - should have to work doing something. There are plenty of jobs that need doing, from picking up litter to mowing grass at parks, to filling potholes. Also, welfare receipients should be required to be ID'ed with fingerprints and photos so any fraud can be detected and punished with seizure of assets to make restitution.
Social Security and Medicare must be removed from gov't control. The pols can't be trusted with the money. Retirement savings and a basic major medical plan can be required of all citizens while leaving the implementation to the private sector with the proper supervision.
Education must be restored to the local communities without Federal interference or financial involvement. The more we spend the worse it gets. Let parents be issued vouchers and choose their children's school. States can implement any required standards without Federal involvement.
As far as the 100K hip replacement, why not offer the patient a two week medical vacation in Thailand, or wherever, lol. Would probably be under 20K. The lawyers would scream bloody murder, of course. We desperately need tort reform. Malpractice should be required to be settled by arbitration in most cases. Only truly negligent behavior should be punished by lawsuit.
The two most dangerous threats to our freedom are the concentrations of wealth at the top and the entitlement mentality at the bottom. Both are used by pols to secure and keep their power, so let's attack both.

[dcarrigg]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

Well I am sick of libs and democrats talking about how the rich get such a good break on taxes. What they mean is the upper middle class making 250K plus. The truly rich don't pay taxes like the rest of us. Remember Teresa Heinz and John Kerry's tax return when they had to make it public? They paid less than 14% on income of about 25M.
So here's my challenge: Go ahead and tax the wealth. Not the income; tax the concentrations of wealth, where ever they are: in family fortunes, in tax exempt foundations, in corporations.

I am with you here. Ultimately, a combination of intense land tax and estate tax on the truly wealthy would be best. I still prefer income tax to sales tax or some flat tax, though.

[cjppjc]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

The problem isn't Bush or Obama or Clinton or Reagan or Carter or Nixon or whomever. They wouldn't have won election if they didn't do just what the people as a whole wanted. Even a far-leftist like Obama couldn't go whole-hog implementing the liberal fantasies he wanted to implement- and that was with a huge House Dem majority and a filibuster-proof Senate. Mainly, the Presidents and the political parties are figureheads. One way or another, the people get what they want, which is lots of "free" stuff from the government without the taxes needed to pay for it. No use bitching about Republicans or Democrats. Bitch about the mindset of the people. Actually, don't bother - because it is going to evolve however it's going to evolve and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it. It's going to go through cycles and it's going to play out all the normal human weaknesses and impulses and no Affirmative Action hire with a messiah complex (nor anyone else) is going to be able to significantly change the evolutionary path the people of the nation are on.

The only sensible thing we as individuals can do is try to understand the mindset, try to reasonably predict the direction it will take based on the similar situations that have repeated all through human history, and make our plans accordingly. It's as big a waste to expend emotional energy on anger about Democrats or Republicans as it would be to be angry at the weather. It's too big and beyond the control of anyone, even The One.

I enjoyed reading 95% of that. I concur with that 95%. Especially regarding emotional energy being wasted.

[c1ue]

Re: Debt now equals total US Economy

My emergency appendectomy was 40 years ago. Cost? Probably so little it made not a dent in my parents budget. Something has changed. Figuring out exactly what is the key to fixing this mess. My guess. Lawsuits. More deadbeats who have to be paid for. A general "cost doesn't matter" attitude. EZ credit. The nature of insurance, where once paid for, people feel the need to maximize their use of health care. I'm sure there are many more.

A few years ago, my mother-in-law presented the hospital bill for my wife's birth to her as a momento. it was 1965, It was hand written on a tear off form from a 4"x6" pad. You know like a guest check from a small diner. It was roughly 300.00.
The family paid out of pocket for it. I think she was in the hospital for 3 days. (My mother in law is/was a tough bird), I think most ladies stayed in 5 days in that era.

2000, My son's birth, normal delivery 20K. Hey look at that ... Again close to 12% y-o-y increase for 35 years. When my company went chapter 7 two weeks after this and I found out I really didn't have any insurance, I had to pay a lot of this bill out of pocket. I argued every line item. I asked for the detail charges. It was roughly 3 pages single spaced of items. My wife's stay was around 2 days.

There have been a lot of posts on iTulip talking about why health care is so screwed up in the US.

The immediate cause of the problem is the growth of the massive medical bureaucracy on both sides of the equation: health insurance companies on the FIRE side, and administration on the provider/hospital side. Arguably the provider/hospital side is in response to the FIRE works.

The actual cause of the problem is a combination of the profit incentive without a public option, the lack of portability again due to no public option, and the discrimination against health insurance for individuals due to tax breaks for corporate health care plans.

Now throw in 6 decades of empire building, and watch it grow.