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2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

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  • 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

    Over the last few months I’ve received more e-mails from readers highlighting properties that have adjusted in price significantly to the downside. To be more specific, the examples of quality properties facing major price corrections are growing larger. Now this isn’t a revelation but what it does tell me about the thousands of readers interested in real estate and who just happen to cross this blog is that many are willing and able to buy at the right price. Patience now seems to be a virtue. The California economy has taken a toll on more working class counties. California is a microcosm of the US economy. You have pockets of markets completely oblivious to the crumbling walls in the economy while most housing areas are struggling to stay afloat. More people are taking a critical eye when purchasing real estate and tighter lending standards have forced many into real estate withdrawal. To quote Jerry Maguire, “show me the money!”

    It is fascinating how we went from a belief that no shadow inventory existed to suddenly shadow inventory being a carefully managed policy from the banking sector. We’ll chalk that up to creative propaganda. As banks have shored up their capital through investment banking and other forms of speculation courtesy of taxpayer bailouts, many banks now seem more willing to leak out the troubled real estate onto the market. Let us take a look at Southern California distressed properties over the last six months:





    Now this is an interesting view of things and this is only showing data from filings. As we know, many banks don’t even file for people missing payments (at least not early on). First, you will notice that from August to November notice of defaults spiked as many of the government modification programs failed. From November to January notice of defaults tumbled largely due to the paperwork fiasco that hit the banking industry. As the NODs filter through the process, you see the decent size spike in scheduled auctions. 71,449 homes in Southern California are sitting eagerly in the auction pipeline gearing up to become REOs for public consumption. In other words, the shadow inventory is ready to enter the market in 2011.

    Now some have been asking why banks are more willing to filter out troubled properties with lower prices. I think the simple answer has to do with the government creating a three year buffer for banks to gather their breath, speculate in global stock markets (which have recovered) and now banks are more able to filter out distressed properties because of their recent profits (and taxpayer handouts). Most of the too big to fail banks have turned solid profits through their investment banking arms so leaking out REOs isn’t such a big deal anymore. There is money to be made elsewhere.

    For example, take a look at this Woodland Hills home:

    6222 FALLBROOK AVE, Woodland Hills, CA 91367
    Bedrooms: 3
    Bathrooms: 2
    Sqft: 1,481
    Here is the sales history on the above home:
    09/01/1995: $160,000
    03/10/2005: $530,000
    The above home is a REO property. So what is the current list price?
    Price Reduced:01/07/11 — $399,900 to $379,900
    Now is this a good price? Still seems high given current market conditions but we are seeing more decent homes in mid-tier neighborhoods going for a lot less. This home from 2004 to 2009 wouldn’t have cracked the $300,000 barrier if it were listed by a willing seller. More and more areas are breaching these kinds of thresholds. Of course you will notice that this is happening with the REOs and not sellers realizing that much of those bubble gains were purely illusions like street magic from David Blaine. Many sellers that don’t get out now are going to see a slow erosion of equity over the next year. How? Just look at the spike in scheduled auctions. Many of these will become REOs and bank owned properties are being priced to sell. Let us look at another example.


    Beds: 4
    Baths: 3
    Square feet: 1,801
    The above is a nice home in Agoura Hills. It is also bank owned. Let us look at the pricing history here:



    Notice how the price isn’t moving up? Someone paid $629,000 for this home back in 2004, almost seven years ago. Today it is listed at $499,900. These are good areas of Los Angeles County and price cuts are occurring just like they are in Culver City for example.

    The trend that seems to have started in fall of last year is the acceleration of price cuts and price reductions from bank owned properties. There seems to be more and more aggressive movement from banks here. Banks have all the above data and more and they realize how overvalued some of their REOs properties are. They also know other banks have the same junk. So now that they know the government will protect them no matter what and their capital base is healthier, they are trying to beat each other to punch by dumping properties before others do. Foreclosures sell for a discount. If banks realize auctions are rising and the economy isn’t getting better, maybe today is the best time to unload.

    What we do know is 2011 is not going to be a pleasant year for California real estate. Many of you already can sense this but banks know this firsthand.

    http://www.doctorhousingbubble.com/f...es-price-cuts/

  • #2
    Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

    Don, I'm a subscriber to foreclosureradar.com and am seeing the same trend --- auctions going forward and more REO. It is still very rare to see a third party buyer at trustee's sales, though. I think this is because lenders have a number of incentives to credit bid higher than what third parties might be willing to pay. First, third parties are looking to profit and some banks want to think they can do just as well through REO, keeping such profits to themselves. Second, a bank must recognize the loan loss at the time of auction; therefore, the size of the loss is reduced through aggressive credit bids. Of course, a higher than fair value credit bid only creates a higher loss for the REO department, but that's the REO's manager's problem, not the SAD (Special Asset Department) manager's problem. Finally, you are correct that by staging the loss across departments and time (the REO loss isn't booked until the home is sold to a third party), the institution can "extend and pretend" the losses over multiple quarters.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

      Good posting!

      Inch by inch ....

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

        Originally posted by don View Post
        Good posting!

        Inch by inch ....

        hmmmm.... yeah, huh?

        maybe... just maybe... we can beat em at their own game (those of us looking to get a piece of the 'flotsam & jetsam' bobbing around out there....)

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

          Originally posted by lektrode View Post
          hmmmm.... yeah, huh?

          maybe... just maybe... we can beat em at their own game (those of us looking to get a piece of the 'flotsam & jetsam' bobbing around out there....)
          Beat them at their own game ... ?



          There's some useful timbers here. Aye, I'll give you that, laddie ....

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

            I was under the impression that about 1/3rd of US housing stock is owned free & clear. I've surveyed my neighborhood of about 300 houses and found that to be the case here based upon publicly recorded mortgages. Why does doctorhousing show 1/4th free & clear? & how do I know which numbers to believe?




            yet according to
            http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea.../cb10-124.html
            "Thirty-two percent of owner-occupied units were owned free and clear, 66 percent had a regular and/or home equity mortgage and 2 percent had only a line-of-credit."

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

              Shadow Foreclosure Inventory + 3.8% Tax + Inflation= We better sell a lot of electric cars

              Excerpt is from email received this morning.


              "Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8%
              sales tax on it? That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
              When did this happen? It's in the health care bill. Just thought you should know.

              SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill) REAL ESTATE SALES TAX

              So, this is "change you can believe in"? Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new taxes don't kick in until 2013 if you sell your $400,000 home, there will be a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often downsize their homes. Does this stuff make your November and 2012 vote more important?

              Oh, you weren't aware this was in the ObamaCare bill? Guess what, you aren't alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of it either."
              “I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes,”
              President Obama, September 12, 2008

              Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8%
              sales tax on it? That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
              When did this happen? It's in the health care bill. Just thought you should know.

              SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill) REAL ESTATE SALES TAX

              So, this is "change you can believe in"? Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new taxes don't kick in until 2013 if you sell your $400,000 home, there will be a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often downsize their homes. Does this stuff make your November and 2012 vote more important?

              Oh, you weren't aware this was in the ObamaCare bill? Guess what, you aren't alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of it either.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                Originally posted by jpetr48 View Post
                Shadow Foreclosure Inventory + 3.8% Tax + Inflation= We better sell a lot of electric cars

                Excerpt is from email received this morning.


                "Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8%
                sales tax on it? That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
                When did this happen? It's in the health care bill. Just thought you should know.

                SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill) REAL ESTATE SALES TAX

                So, this is "change you can believe in"? Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new taxes don't kick in until 2013 if you sell your $400,000 home, there will be a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often downsize their homes. Does this stuff make your November and 2012 vote more important?

                Oh, you weren't aware this was in the ObamaCare bill? Guess what, you aren't alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of it either."
                “I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes,”
                President Obama, September 12, 2008

                Did you know that if you sell your house after 2012 you will pay a 3.8%
                sales tax on it? That's $3,800 on a $100,000 home etc.
                When did this happen? It's in the health care bill. Just thought you should know.

                SALES TAX TO GO INTO EFFECT 2013 (Part of HC Bill) REAL ESTATE SALES TAX

                So, this is "change you can believe in"? Under the new health care bill - did you know that all real estate transactions will be subject to a 3.8% Sales Tax? The bulk of these new taxes don't kick in until 2013 if you sell your $400,000 home, there will be a $15,200 tax. This bill is set to screw the retiring generation who often downsize their homes. Does this stuff make your November and 2012 vote more important?

                Oh, you weren't aware this was in the ObamaCare bill? Guess what, you aren't alone. There are more than a few members of Congress that aren't aware of it either.
                Jptr48, you can check here to see that the information you posted above is false:

                http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/realestate.asp

                When this was being debated, I was frankly shocked to learn that while I pay an unlimited 3.8% medicare tax on my self-employment earnings (my service income), my wealthy neighbor who lives off of investment income and plays golf everyday pays NO tax on even the first dollar of his investment income. I had no idea this was the law. After that I had a very hard time hearing him complain about his Medicare "issues". He's paid nothing for it and it is literally a free benefit to somebody who could clearly afford to pay their own medical bills. In the meantime, I'm paying 3.8% of my income every year and can only afford to insure my wife and children because I was recently diagnose diabetic and can no longer qualify for private insurance (BTW, I am a thin man with no family history of diabetes, so please spare me the "you're to blame for your health condition" reply).

                So given the above, I'm entirely in favor of leveling the field. If my neighbor, rich or not, is living off his investment income and will be using Medicare, why the hell should he get a free ride? I'm really interested in hearing your response, as I frankly am stunned that any American would be in favor of giving free medical care to rich people who never paid the taxes to support it.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                  goodrich4bk
                  Thank you goodrich. I am sorry to hear of your health condition. I agree and think most Americans would that you pay proportional to your wealth.

                  On the 3.8% sales tax
                  I don't place much credence on Internet postings or emails. So I did call my congressman's office then the House Ways and Means Committee. Both agreed to their understanding of this tax and as a matter of fact wanted me to search for this in the bill.

                  Presently I don't have time to do word search in this bill, but I do recommend going as close to the source as possible. That's why I called two DC offices-to get a listing of this and other "hidden jewels."
                  Joe

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                    Originally posted by goodrich4bk View Post
                    Jptr48, you can check here to see that the information you posted above is false:

                    http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/realestate.asp

                    When this was being debated, I was frankly shocked to learn that while I pay an unlimited 3.8% medicare tax on my self-employment earnings (my service income), my wealthy neighbor who lives off of investment income and plays golf everyday pays NO tax on even the first dollar of his investment income. I had no idea this was the law. After that I had a very hard time hearing him complain about his Medicare "issues". He's paid nothing for it and it is literally a free benefit to somebody who could clearly afford to pay their own medical bills. In the meantime, I'm paying 3.8% of my income every year and can only afford to insure my wife and children because I was recently diagnose diabetic and can no longer qualify for private insurance (BTW, I am a thin man with no family history of diabetes, so please spare me the "you're to blame for your health condition" reply).

                    So given the above, I'm entirely in favor of leveling the field. If my neighbor, rich or not, is living off his investment income and will be using Medicare, why the hell should he get a free ride? I'm really interested in hearing your response, as I frankly am stunned that any American would be in favor of giving free medical care to rich people who never paid the taxes to support it.

                    Good point. Why the hell does it matter how income is made? Do the dollars spend differently? People are not going to stop investing just because their money is taxed the same as the rest of us. And even if they do , so what? They spend it and some other joker makes money off it and HE pays tax on it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                      Joe, I generally agree with taking internet postings with a huge grain of salt. But Snopes is a site that has an excellent reputation for accuracy and it is not pushing any political view. It just researches "urban legends" so you and I don't have to.

                      I've also found that after less than a half hour researching a particular issue, I know more about it than my elected officials. I chaffe under Woolsey and Boxer, but I haven't found Republicans to be any more competent in this regard. If you just look at your Representative's schedule you will see that they spend 90% of their time raising money -- which means that their understanding of any issue will be limited to what their sponsors have told them.

                      Your experience confirms this. Your Congressmen (I assume they are Republicans) seem to think the bill created a sales tax. It did not. A sales tax would be levied on all home sales and would be based upon gross proceeds. This does not. This is an INCOME tax, a tax on investment income. And it is a tax on NET investment income, not gross proceeds. Your Congressman are clearly not reading the bill or visiting sites like Snopes; they are listening only to their political sponsors -- very likely those corporate insurance interests that are determined to rollback the healthcare insurance reform.

                      So how did your Congress people conclude that it is a sales tax on homes? Well, if I sell my home after 2013 I may receive investment income if the net sales proceeds exceed my basis by more than $250k for a single taxpayer and $500k for a married taxpayer (under current law no profits from the sale of a home under those limits is taxable "investment income").

                      I don't know about you, but I suspect most married Americans would not be able to sell their home now for $500k more than they paid for it. But if they did, they would only pay a 3.8% medicare tax on the profit in excess of $500k. Compare this to the 3.8% medicare tax I pay on my first dollar of GROSS income, i.e., the first dollar a client pays me regardless of how much I spent in deductible expenses to earn that dollar.

                      Now perhaps you know why my opinion of many Republicans is lower than my opinion of many Democrats (yes, I know that bar is low). They spread this kind of information through Fox and NewsMax until it becomes widely believed. They then use this wide belief to protect only the very rich, ie, those who do not need to work for a living, from paying any medicare taxes at all. These people's representatives in Congress then clothe themselves with honorable commitments to the Constitution, to "self-reliance" and to a "free market" when, in fact, they are parasites trying to keep an entitlement to medical care for which they have never paid.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                        Joe, thanks for the sypathy. But to be clear, I am no fan of the healthcare reform bill. Let me give you my insights as to why.

                        Diabetes is a chronic disease for which there is no cure. The discovery of insulin, though, allows us to stay relatively healthy and live full lives. Also important is a disciplined diet and excercise regimine.

                        Most medical expenses incurred by diabetics are for the long term damage to our organs from uncontrolled blood sugar levels. The worst victims are usually those who discover too late they have the disease. By then they are losing their eyesight or a limb. Their last years are a painful slide into dependency.

                        I was lucky in that I caught mine very early. That's because I read a lot and immediately thought of diabetes when I began to feel thirsty too often, particularly after large meals.

                        The way you treat the disease is to monitor blood sugar levels 4 to 6 times a day and then give yourself shots of insulin to balance the amount of carbohydrates you consume. It's a pain in the butt (literally) but not impossible.

                        Here's my problem with the insurance system: When I had insurance I visited a specialist in diabetes. He told me I needed to attend a week long class to learn dietary treatments. He told me I needed to come in four times a year for testing. The class cost my insurance company $5600, the visits cost $364 for 5 minutes and the testing was $180-$280 depending on the tests. Then there were the test strips (1500 a year @ .50 a strip = $750/year) and the insulin ($50/month = $600 a year). So the disease cost my insurance company about $3,500 a year to treat, and that's without any symptoms needing to be treated.

                        When I lost my group insurance and couldn't get private insurance, I decided to investigate my options. I found an online supply of test strips that cost $.11 a strip, a similar supply of insulin for $30 and online testing for $35 (the HbA1c test). I don't see a doctor because I have no symptoms, and I make sure my blood sugar is carefully monitored by the frequest tests I do. My annual cash expenses are now less than the co-pays I previously spend WITH full insurance!

                        In short, I believe that much of the medical system is a racket and that requiring everybody to have insurance will do nothing to lower the cost or the availability of medical care. I don't know the best solution, but I appreciate that the Democrats at least attempted to find one. Yes, their solution will require sacrifice from some to provide basic care to others, but that is the price of living outside the state of nature which, as we all should remember, is a life that is nasty, brutish and short.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                          Goodrich4bk,

                          I have added Snopes to my bookmark list. Thank you.
                          There is a complete lack of transparency especially those regulated industries such as healthcare and financial services. I thought following the macroeconomic trends would be enough. Now I have to follow a healthcare reform law. This is totally absurd.
                          My compliments to you on being empowered and proactive with care for your health. (As an aside there is a notable book called the Gerson Therapy - using a pressed juicer for healing cancer. It is about empowering your health to beat cancer-no silver bullet either).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                            I sympathize with what you're saying on taxes, goodrich4bk. I'm a small businessman myself and chafe at the payroll taxes I and my corporation pay on both sides of the employer-employee transaction. But having already watched so much of my hard-earned money taken out of my payroll and paycheck for Medicare, Social Security, etc, before I can salt the remainder away into savings and investments, I don't really think it's fair to pay a second round of payroll taxes on gains from those investments -- particularly since a big chunk of those gains consists of nothing more than keeping up with inflation (and taking on significant investment risk simply to stay at real zero).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: 2011: Will it be the Big Shadow RE Rollout?

                              Try taking Horse Chestnut oil extract, not a cure but a good remedy for conditions like Diabetes and gout etc.

                              Comment

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