You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

[bill]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

...Japanese makers led by Panasonic are battling Korean makers such as LG Chem <051910.KS> and Samsung SDI <006400.KS> to win the biggest share of the nascent market for lithium batteries used to power computers, mobile phones, hybrids, electric vehicles and other consumer products.
Panasonic, largely through its Sanyo subsidiary, has about a 26 percent share of the global market for lithium ion cells, according to research firm Techno Systems Research. The company has contracts to supply batteries to six automakers including Volkswagen AG and Suzuki Motor Corp <7269.T>.
It is also selling to U.S. partner Tesla Motors Inc in which Toyota holds a stake, the Nikkei said.
Hitachi Ltd (6501.T) , which already supplies batteries for General Motors Co hybrids, will begin mass production of high-performance lithium ion batteries for plug-in hybrids in 2013, the paper said...

LG, Samsung, Panasonic/Sanyo, Hitachi...'nuff said...

Here you go,,,,diesel and lithium

http://www.gizmag.com/volvo-v60-plug...-hybrid/17940/

February 21, 2011
At the 2011 Geneva Motor Show, Volvo Cars will be unveiling the world's first diesel plug-in hybrid - a virtually production-ready Volvo V60 with carbon dioxide emissions below 50 g/km. The Plug-in Hybrid, which will be launched in the market in 2012, is the result of close co-operation between Volvo Cars and Swedish energy supplier Vattenfall. The concept of a plug-in diesel hybrid gives the driver the very best of what an electric and diesel car can offer: very low fuel consumption and CO2 levels, combined with long range and high performance.
.
.
The front wheels of the V60 Plug-in Hybrid will be driven by a five-cylinder 2.4-litre D5 turbo diesel, which produces 215 horsepower and maximum torque of 440 Nm.
The rear axle features ERAD (Electric Rear Axle Drive) in the form of an electric motor producing 70 horsepower, which receives its power from a 12 kWh lithium-ion battery pack. The car features a six-speed automatic transmission. The driver chooses the preferred driving mode via three buttons on the instrument panel: Pure, Hybrid and Power. The interaction between diesel and electric power is handled via a control system.
The car's total range is up to 746 miles.

[c1ue]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Back on topic:

Consumer Reports rates the Volt and the Leaf...

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...-nissan-leaf/1

Consumer Reports says the 2011 Chevrolet Volt extended-range electric car won't go as far as it is billed.


CAPTION

By Chevrolet

Consumer Reports magazine offers its initial assessment of the two reigning wondercars of our times, the Chevrolet Volt and Nissan Leaf, in its April issue and finds both may not be such good deals after all.Not only has Consumer Reports' test car been coming in at the low end of the electric-only mileage range -- 23 to 28 miles, not 25 to 50 miles as billed -- before the gasoline power kicks in, but CR had to pay over list to the get the car. It says it had to pay $48,700 -- full price plus options and a $5,000 windfall to the dealer.
TEST DRIVE REVIEWS: Leaf | Volt
Alec Nemster from Nissan plugs in one of the Leafs into the quick charger in a demonstration. Consumer Reports warns that Leafs may not get good range in cold weather.


CAPTION

By Dan MacMedan, USA TODAY

It gets worse. CR figures the cost of recharging the Volt would work out to about 5.7 cents a mile for electric mode and 10 cents a mile for gas. Yet a Toyota Prius, which gets about 50 miles a gallon, would cost 6.8 cents a mile to operate. A Prius costs half as much as a Volt.CR seems to feel a little better about the all-electric Leaf. It borrowed one from Nissan while it awaits delivery of its own. The $35,270 electric car had its range severely restricted by the cold weather that has gripped the East, much like the Volt. The range has been averaging 65 miles, not the 100 miles that Nissan bills. Plus the mileage gauge isn't that accurate in the cold when electric heaters gobble up kilowatts. Instead of the 36 miles of range that the car said it had, one tester got 19.
Yet CR said other than range, it liked a lot of things about the Leaf. It accelerated rapidly and climbed hills well. It said it would be a good second car in urban area if it is in "a temperate climate." Guess that rules out the Northeast, Midwest, deserts and a bunch of other places.

Ruh roh raggy - all the criticisms noted in the past: range much lower than touted. Expensive.

No mention of recharge times.

Apparently the Tesla requires 32 hours to recharge: http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradv...al-outlet.html

If you install a 70 amp special outlet - this drops to 'only' 3.4 hours. To put this in perspective, a typical house's entire electrical system is rated for 100 amps - with newer ones potentially having 200 amps (flintlock can confirm).

Another item of interest: apparently lithium batteries are different than metal hydride batteries in that you want to keep them at maximum charge. This is good for short range electric cars driven extremely short ranges, but actually bad for the same cars driven near maximum range.

[flintlock]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/03/01...ssan-67-leafs/

GM sells just 281 Chevy Volts in February, Nissan only moves 67 Leafs

[flintlock]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Back on topic:

Consumer Reports rates the Volt and the Leaf...

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...-nissan-leaf/1



Ruh roh raggy - all the criticisms noted in the past: range much lower than touted. Expensive.

No mention of recharge times.

Apparently the Tesla requires 32 hours to recharge: http://blogs.edmunds.com/greencaradv...al-outlet.html

If you install a 70 amp special outlet - this drops to 'only' 3.4 hours. To put this in perspective, a typical house's entire electrical system is rated for 100 amps - with newer ones potentially having 200 amps (flintlock can confirm).

Another item of interest: apparently lithium batteries are different than metal hydride batteries in that you want to keep them at maximum charge. This is good for short range electric cars driven extremely short ranges, but actually bad for the same cars driven near maximum range.

I'd say most homes built in the last 20 years had at least a 150 amp service. But even with the more typical 200 amp service of modern homes, a lot won't have 70 amps of "headroom" to add. Especially those already running hot tubs, finished basements etc. But in reality, most homes should be able to charge at that rate overnight when most stuff is not running. I need to pull out the code book and see how it addresses charging cars. Never had that come up in over 25 years .

I hope these electric cars make it. Smells like money to me.

I found this searching around

http://gas2.org/2010/05/24/electric-...fast-chargers/

Looks like most homes would get a "level 2" charging station. Up to 60 amps but a 25 amp version would be a good compromise. Nissan estimates $2200 to install and tax credits could cut that in half. This article is from last May so things may have changed since then. I'd say many homes could handle a 25 amp 240v charger no problem. But so many I see now have no free space available in the panel and some additional work could be required just for that reason. Sounds like people need to check into this BEFORE they buy an electric car, as some homes are a real pain to add anything and others are simply maxed out already. Those in small apartments/condos can forget about it.

Power company delivery considerations must also be taken into account. A few homes won't matter. A whole neighborhood might.

[cmalbatros]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Don't know how many MPG but it is damn quick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l0bxRu81IA

[c1ue]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

More fun with electric cars:

http://www.wheels.ca/article/794286

John LeBlanc Special to the Star
The potential popularity of electric vehicles has always been tempered in cold climates, like here in Canada, because of the concerns that freezing temperatures will reduce the range of an EV’s batteries.

And now a long-term test report of the Chevrolet Volt, in the U.S. magazine Motor Trend, confirms that fear and also suggests you may have to keep your winter clothes on while driving the plug-in electric hybrid during colder days.

The magazine found that the Volt uses up a “considerable” amount of battery range to heat up its cabin on colder days, reducing its range to well below 30 miles (48 kms) before draining the battery and reverting to its gas generator to recharge the batteries and power its electric motor — much lower than the optimal 64 km estimate.

Based on using an aftermarket internal thermometer, the magazine also found that the Volt’s climate control system does more than just portion out the air temperature to what is set on the climate control.

Using an external thermometer, the Volt’s heater was set to 24 degrees Celsius, but the cabin temperature was closer to 18C. However, the footwell temperature reached about 28.4C.

Apparently, a warm footwell plus heated seats is Chevrolet’s strategy to make Volt drivers feel warm.

The result led to the review calling the Chevy EV as “a sweater and gloves commuter car for northern-tier Volt owners.”

[Ghent12]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

More fun with electric cars:

http://www.wheels.ca/article/794286

"Apparently, a warm footwell plus heated seats is Chevrolet's strategy to make Volt drivers feel warm."

In keeping with the theme of this thread, I suppose it should be pointed out that the same results can be achieved by riding on a horse, especially riding bareback.

[Glenn Black]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

France is Civil Code. That means that if there is a reasonable & probable grounds for the Judge to suspect, then the burden of proof shifts over to the accused. The accused must then prove his innocence. It looks like these employees had better have a good explanation of their sudden wealth.