You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

[GRG55]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

The electric car pays if you know how to invest.
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/commerci...?news_id=16633
January 7, 2011

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry after I read this:

"The licensing agreement with LG Chem concretely illustrates the key role that DOE national laboratories like Argonne play in the manufacturing supply chain in the United States," said Eric Isaacs, Argonne director and president of UChicago Argonne, LLC, a wholly owned laboratory management subsidiary of the University of Chicago. "The development of this cathode material is the result of research performed by a multidisciplinary team of world-class scientists based at Argonne." "It is especially gratifying to know that the commercialization of this Argonne-cathode is helping the development of an emerging U.S. battery manufacturing industry, as well as the creation of new American jobs," said Jeff Chamberlain, who heads Argonne's Energy Storage Initiative. LG Chem Michigan, Inc. (LGCMI), a wholly owned subsidiary of LG Chem, will manufacture Li-ion polymer battery cells for the Chevy Volt at a Recovery Act-funded $303 million production facility under construction in Holland, Mich.

Let me see if I have this right. The basic research at Argonne was funded by...well, probably the American taxpayers, non? Then the results are licensed to LG Chem Michigan, Inc., which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of L.G. Chemical, a private company in turn owned by Korea's Lucky Goldstar group, which also owns Compact Power, Inc. which was contracted by General Motors, a company bailed out by...well, the taxpayers...to supply the batteries for the Chevy Volt. As if all that isn't enough, the ultimately foreign owned manufacturing plant to produce the batteries is subsidised by...well, the American taxpayers, non?

This sort of sums up the sorry state of American job creation...

[bill]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry after I read this:

"The licensing agreement with LG Chem concretely illustrates the key role that DOE national laboratories like Argonne play in the manufacturing supply chain in the United States," said Eric Isaacs, Argonne director and president of UChicago Argonne, LLC, a wholly owned laboratory management subsidiary of the University of Chicago. "The development of this cathode material is the result of research performed by a multidisciplinary team of world-class scientists based at Argonne." "It is especially gratifying to know that the commercialization of this Argonne-cathode is helping the development of an emerging U.S. battery manufacturing industry, as well as the creation of new American jobs," said Jeff Chamberlain, who heads Argonne's Energy Storage Initiative. LG Chem Michigan, Inc. (LGCMI), a wholly owned subsidiary of LG Chem, will manufacture Li-ion polymer battery cells for the Chevy Volt at a Recovery Act-funded $303 million production facility under construction in Holland, Mich.

Let me see if I have this right. The basic research at Argonne was funded by...well, probably the American taxpayers, non? Then the results are licensed to LG Chem Michigan, Inc., which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of L.G. Chemical, a private company in turn owned by Korea's Lucky Goldstar group, which also owns Compact Power, Inc. which was contracted by General Motors, a company bailed out by...well, the taxpayers...to supply the batteries for the Chevy Volt. As if all that isn't enough, the ultimately foreign owned manufacturing plant to produce the batteries is subsidised by...well, the American taxpayers, non?

This sort of sums up the sorry state of American job creation...

As far as I’m concern they should build that clean diesel refinery in South Dakota. Unfortunately that’s not the policy of our representatives and I have to make a few bucks somehow.

LG Chem Michigan is a subsidiary of LG Chem. LG Chem is a public company and I purchased shares back in feb 09.
Any way the lithium battery production is the new hot deal and trying to figure out what company will be the political winner is a mine field.
That said I have purchased shares in graphite mining companies. Graphite is in every lithium battery.

http://www.lgchem.com/
page 15
http://www.lgchem.com/upload/annual_..._full_book.pdf


And lets not leave Toyota out.

TOKYO, Jan 13 (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp <7203.T> will mass-produce lithium ion batteries for its plug-in hybrid vehicles from this autumn, the Nikkei business daily reported.
Toyota's first-ever production lines for lithium ion batteries at its plant in Aichi Prefecture in central Japan and at a factory operated with Panasonic Corp <6752.T> in Shizuoka Prefecture, south of Tokyo, are expected to cost the carmaker 10 billion yen ($120 million) , the newspaper said.
Toyota will soon begin mass-producing lithium batteries at subsidiary Prime Earth EV Energy, which is 80.5 percent owned by the carmaker with the remainder held by Panasonic, Toyota spokeswoman Shiori Hashimoto said. That plan is not new, she said.
The two facilities combined will make batteries for about 100,000 plug-in hybrid vehicles a year, the Nikkei said. Toyota plans to sell these vehicles in Japan, the United States and Europe at the start of 2012, the paper said.
Hashimoto declined to say how many of its own lithium batteries Toyota planned to make.
Lithium ion batteries are seen as more suitable for eco-cars, but their cost has been an issue as it accounts for about half the cost of a typical electric car, the Nikkei said, adding that manufacturing them in-house will give Toyota more control over performance and costs.
Japanese makers led by Panasonic are battling Korean makers such as LG Chem <051910.KS> and Samsung SDI <006400.KS> to win the biggest share of the nascent market for lithium batteries used to power computers, mobile phones, hybrids, electric vehicles and other consumer products.
Panasonic, largely through its Sanyo subsidiary, has about a 26 percent share of the global market for lithium ion cells, according to research firm Techno Systems Research. The company has contracts to supply batteries to six automakers including Volkswagen AG and Suzuki Motor Corp <7269.T>.
It is also selling to U.S. partner Tesla Motors Inc in which Toyota holds a stake, the Nikkei said.
Hitachi Ltd (6501.T) , which already supplies batteries for General Motors Co hybrids, will begin mass production of high-performance lithium ion batteries for plug-in hybrids in 2013, the paper said.
Shares of Toyota were up 0.9 percent at 3,530 yen by late Thursday morning in Tokyo, compared with a 0.6 percent gain in the benchmark Nikkei <.N225> average.
($1=83.31 Yen)
(Reporting by Aditi Sharma in Bangalore and Tim Kelly in Tokyo; Editing by Michael Watson)
( (tim.kelly@thomsonreuters.com; +81-3-6441-1311; Reuters Messaging: tim.kelly.reuters.com@reuters.net) )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium...olymer_battery

Technical specifications
There are currently two commercialized technologies, both lithium-ion-polymer (where "polymer" stands for "polymer electrolyte/separator") cells. These are collectively referred to as "polymer electrolyte batteries".
The battery is constructed as:

• Cathode: LiCoO₂ or LiMn₂O₄
• Separator: Conducting polymer electrolyte
• Anode: Li or carbon-Li intercalation compound

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercalation_(chemistry)
[QUOTE]In chemistry, intercalation is the reversible inclusion of a molecule (or group) between two other molecules (or groups). Examples include DNA intercalation and graphite intercalation compounds.[/QUOTE]


and
http://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconduct...nsumer-gadgets

http://www.planarenergy.com/


I almost forgot the political coordinator at taxpayer expense.
http://techtransfer.energy.gov/

We are pleased that Dr. Karina Edmonds will join the Department of Energy as its new Technology Transfer Coordinator. Dr. Edmonds will be responsible for working with the Department's National Laboratories to accelerate the process of moving discoveries from the laboratory to the private sector, ensuring that America's scientific leadership translates into new, high-paying jobs for America's families. Dr. Edmonds is scheduled to join the Department starting in April 2010. "I am pleased to have Karina join our team at the Department of Energy," said Secretary Chu.

[GRG55]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

...Japanese makers led by Panasonic are battling Korean makers such as LG Chem <051910.KS> and Samsung SDI <006400.KS> to win the biggest share of the nascent market for lithium batteries used to power computers, mobile phones, hybrids, electric vehicles and other consumer products.
Panasonic, largely through its Sanyo subsidiary, has about a 26 percent share of the global market for lithium ion cells, according to research firm Techno Systems Research. The company has contracts to supply batteries to six automakers including Volkswagen AG and Suzuki Motor Corp <7269.T>.
It is also selling to U.S. partner Tesla Motors Inc in which Toyota holds a stake, the Nikkei said.
Hitachi Ltd (6501.T) , which already supplies batteries for General Motors Co hybrids, will begin mass production of high-performance lithium ion batteries for plug-in hybrids in 2013, the paper said...

LG, Samsung, Panasonic/Sanyo, Hitachi...'nuff said...

[c1ue]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

I'm afraid you're quite confused here. Electric vehicles are much heavier than gasoline powered ones. Batteries are extremely heavy; about 1/3 of the weight of a Roadster is its Energy Storage System. (One Roadster owner gave up his 4WD Audi because the Roadster does better in snow.)

Deathtraps? How well does gasoline burn?

The battery packs plus electric engine aren't heavier than the combustion engine + gasoline.

The main reason they are so heavy is because any car on the road must adhere to specific safety regulations on structural strength and what not. This lends a lot of weight - and since the electric cars are also lower power/weight ratio (battery + electric engine vs. combustion system), they have to throw bigger batteries on.

In other words, electric cars today must play be combustion car structural rules: minimum weight of combustion car dictated by engine -> combustion engine structural regulations -> electric car extra weight.

Of course in reality a combustion engine can be very small - look at the aforementioned classic VW bug.

[Starving Steve]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

The battery packs plus electric engine aren't heavier than the combustion engine + gasoline.

The main reason they are so heavy is because any car on the road must adhere to specific safety regulations on structural strength and what not. This lends a lot of weight - and since the electric cars are also lower power/weight ratio (battery + electric engine vs. combustion system), they have to throw bigger batteries on.

In other words, electric cars today must play be combustion car structural rules: minimum weight of combustion car dictated by engine -> combustion engine structural regulations -> electric car extra weight.

Of course in reality a combustion engine can be very small - look at the aforementioned classic VW bug.

Internal-combustion engines that I like, in light-weight but strong cars with at least 4-seats and leg-room: a.) nat-gas powering such engines; b.) diesel to power such engines; c.) any internal-combustion engine with a 5 or 6-speed manual-transmission, or even an automatic-transmission.

The old rule in engineering--- and I am not an engineer--- was, "Keep it simple, Simon." Even in teaching, the rule in lessons is, "Keep it simple, Simon." Everything is best when simple.

The old VW bug was TERRIBLE. It had repair and maintenance costs that were outrageous. The old VW bug was an example of the world's worst-engineering in cars.

[GRG55]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

...The old rule in engineering--- and I am not an engineer--- was, "Keep it simple, Simon." Even in teaching, the rule in lessons is, "Keep it simple, Simon." Everything is best when simple.

The old VW bug was TERRIBLE. It had repair and maintenance costs that were outrageous. The old VW bug was an example of the world's worst-engineering in cars.

Steve: I'll say you're not an engineer. That last sentence is proof positive of that!

[shiny!]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Check out the Arcimoto Pulse. A three-wheel, two passenger electric car, it will be classified as a motorcycle thus avoiding the automobile regulations that make cars energy-inefficient. Since most cars on the road usually only carry one or two passengers and are mainly used for commuting to work and driving around town, this is a very efficient design.



The Pulse is built with non-proprietary off-the-shelf parts and will be technology-neutral, meaning it won't be locked into only one battery type. As batteries improve they can be utilized in the Pulse. Estimated price is about $18,000.

[bill]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

As batteries improve they can be utilized in the Pulse. .

http://www.fastcompany.com/blog/arie...efficient-meta

Still, metal-air ionic liquid batteries aren't quite ready for prime-time. Ionic liquids are expensive because they are often made in small quantities. That could easily change if metal-air becomes the battery of choice for EVs, but until then, Fluidic Energy faces a cost barrier. And with lithum-ion battery facilities ramping up production around the world, it's unlikely that an entirely new type of EV battery will find its way into facilities any time soon.

For storage, yes
see my post
http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...13831#poststop


The race is on

http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsAr...aspx?AR=254588

Mercedes-Benz has kicked off styling studies into a range of new alternative-drive city cars as part of a project known internally under the working title Mega City Mobility.
Aimed at providing Mercedes-Benz with an answer to the much-hyped BMW Mega City Vehicle and a new all-electric Audi model set to come off the same platform as parent company Volkswagen’s new Up city car, the car is being styled at the company’s Yokahama-based studio in Japan under the direction of Holger Hutzenlaub.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2011/01/16/bm...out-next-week/

Jan 16th, 2011
The BMW 1 Series ActiveE will be officially unveiled at the Geneva Motor Show in March 2011, but the first production vehicle will be roll out as early as next week. According to BMW insider Scott27, the company will soon be ready to accept applications for the pilot program that begins this summer.
To gather feedback quicker and more efficient, BMW has also setup a forum for future owners and general public. The team behind the ActiveE project pointed us to the following internet address: bmwactivatethefuture.com.
BMW will also introduce an iPhone app, called “BMW EV Mobile Application” which will allow non-electric drivers to make an informed decision on whether the BMW 1er Coupe ActiveE satisfies their driving habits and requirements.
In the US, BMW will offer at least 450 ActiveE vehicles, similar to the MINI E pilot introduced two years ago.
New York Metro and Greater Los Angeles will again be included and be joined by Metropolitan markets of San Diego, San Francisco, Sacramento and Boston.
A glimpse of the BMW ActiveE was first seen with theConcept ActiveE at the North American International Auto Show in January, 2010. Based on the chassis of a BMW 1 Series Coupe it features a newly developed electric drivetrain and a lithium-ion battery-packed developed in cooperation with SB-LiMotive. It offers four passenger seating and approximately seven cubic-feet of luggage capacity.
Based on realistic simulations, the sprint from 0-60 mph requires approximately 8.5 seconds. The maximum speed of the vehicle is electronically limited at around 90 mph.

http://www.sblimotive.com/en/home.html

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry after I read this:

"The licensing agreement with LG Chem concretely illustrates the key role that DOE national laboratories like Argonne play in the manufacturing supply chain in the United States," said Eric Isaacs, Argonne director and president of UChicago Argonne, LLC, a wholly owned laboratory management subsidiary of the University of Chicago. "The development of this cathode material is the result of research performed by a multidisciplinary team of world-class scientists based at Argonne." "It is especially gratifying to know that the commercialization of this Argonne-cathode is helping the development of an emerging U.S. battery manufacturing industry, as well as the creation of new American jobs," said Jeff Chamberlain, who heads Argonne's Energy Storage Initiative. LG Chem Michigan, Inc. (LGCMI), a wholly owned subsidiary of LG Chem, will manufacture Li-ion polymer battery cells for the Chevy Volt at a Recovery Act-funded $303 million production facility under construction in Holland, Mich.

Let me see if I have this right. The basic research at Argonne was funded by...well, probably the American taxpayers, non? Then the results are licensed to LG Chem Michigan, Inc., which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of L.G. Chemical, a private company in turn owned by Korea's Lucky Goldstar group, which also owns Compact Power, Inc. which was contracted by General Motors, a company bailed out by...well, the taxpayers...to supply the batteries for the Chevy Volt. As if all that isn't enough, the ultimately foreign owned manufacturing plant to produce the batteries is subsidised by...well, the American taxpayers, non?

This sort of sums up the sorry state of American job creation...

The US national labs are a curious breed of cat. They were created as a follow-on to the Manhattan Project in WWII, and post-war became the focus of our nuclear weapons build-up and space race during the cold war.

Since the USSR collapsed they've struggled to find a way to make a living and keep the doors open. The best buzzword to sell their continued existence is “commercialization”.

At their beginning, the labs were staffed and operated by America’s huge industrial companies and universities as a patriotic contribution. Outfits like AT&T and Westinghouse managed them for a token payment. Argonne was run by the University of Chicago.

Lately they’ve become cash cows to government contracting houses as GOCOs - Government Owned Contractor Operated facilities. The contractor gets the national lab management contract, and all the lab employees now get their paycheck from the contractor, who pockets a 5% markup on the entire budget for the lab. For example, the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Colorado is run by the (private) Midwest Research Institute.

[flintlock]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Steve: I'll say you're not an engineer. That last sentence is proof positive of that!

Beat me to it! High repair costs? There are parts on modern cars that cost more than that entire car did.

Steve, Simon says the old Beetle was a pretty simple car.

[flintlock]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

The Electric car debate is like the debate on Earmarks in regard to eliminating the national debt. Not saying it won't help, just that the net change is not what many believe. More than a few electric car owners I know actually think electricity is totally non polluting, ignoring how it is produced. But hey, its a start towards getting off the foreign oil.

[Starving Steve]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Beat me to it! High repair costs? There are parts on modern cars that cost more than that entire car did.

Steve, Simon says the old Beetle was a pretty simple car.

Some expense for driving around Winnipeg in winter in a VW bug: a.) automatic-torque converter rubber cracked; b.) brake shoes every 12,000 miles; c.) broken linkage-cables in the interior of the bug; d.) electrical system problems; e.) automatic stick-shift electrical failures; f.) a mouse blowing-thru a straw for a heater; g.) no defrost; h.) frozen turn-signal lights; i.)ripping in the seats; j.) broken speedometre cables; k.) torn wiper-blade rubber; l.) no generation of power in the generator due to frost; m.) rust and salted-everything; n.) valve-clearance adjustments; o.) really POOR fuel-efficiency and even in summer; drips of fluids coming from your car; p.) battery failure; q.) alignment problems; r.) "square wheels"; s.) squeel in the radio; t.) frozen brake-fluid; u.) water in the oil; v.) special torque-wrench required for an oil change; w.) cracking in the front windshield; x.) steering-problems (skiing) in snow; y.) muffler problems; z.) a motor transplant in 70,000 miles or LESS in a bug; aa.) no trade-in value; bb.) oil consumption, etc.

The VW-bus was far worse; they required engine-transplants every 20,000 miles or LESS. Happily, I never bought one of them.

[renewable]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Some expense for driving around Winnipeg in winter in a VW bug

What year was this? The beetle was very well engineered when it was designed in Germany - for it's moderate climate - in 1938.

It sounds like your problems were primarily related to choosing to drive a very outdated car in an inappropriate climate.

edit: and how old was the car itself? - it sounds as though it was on it's last legs.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

Some expense for driving around Winnipeg in winter in a VW bug:

I think we have found the challenge for our upcoming "Best Salesman of the Year Award" -- sell Starving Steve a VW bus!

[GRG55]

Re: You've come a long way, baby: the electric car vs. the horse

I think we have found the challenge for our upcoming "Best Salesman of the Year Award" -- sell Starving Steve a VW bus!

That Starving Steve had such a bad experience with the luvable Bug was clearly a traumatic, life-altering experience for him...and suddenly a lot of other things become clear, boo hoo. :'-)