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  • China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...151124434.html

    China's Stealth Jet 'Leak' Not Seen as an Accident



    By JEREMY PAGE

    View Full Image



    Associated Press In a Jan. 5 photo, people surround a Chinese stealth plane before its runway test in Chengdu.







    BEIJING—Fresh video and still images of China's supposed stealth fighter prototype have emerged online, fueling speculation among military officials and experts about why the secretive military would suddenly allow the curtain to be lifted on such a sensitive project.
    Despite China's tight Internet controls, Chinese bloggers have posted dozens of images of the J-20 online in the week leading up to a long-delayed visit by Robert Gates, the U.S. defense secretary, who arrives in Beijing Sunday on a mission to repair military ties.

    WSJ's Adam Horvath and Simon Constable discuss video purported to be of a new Chinese stealth fighter jet that has emerged online, and has raised concerns of a potential rival to the U.S. F-22.


    Several Chinese bloggers have also posted what appear to be firsthand accounts of the J-20 conducting high-speed taxi tests—one of the last stages before a test flight—at the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute in western China.
    The Chinese government and military have maintained silence on the apparent tests, which suggest that China is making faster-than-expected progress in developing a potential rival to the U.S. F-22—the world's only fully operational stealth fighter.
    More




    Yet Chinese bloggers described in detail Friday how Chinese officials had arrived at the airfield in motorcades and private jets to inspect the J-20 and pose for photographs wearing the pilot's helmet and sitting in the cockpit.
    Many of the bloggers, some of whom appeared to be at the scene, said they had expected the aircraft to make its first test flight Friday, and were disappointed when the visiting officials dispersed without the J-20 taking off.
    China's state media, meanwhile, sent mixed signals by quoting foreign media reports on the aircraft, and reactions to those reports from Chinese defense analysts, without actually confirming or denying that the tests were taking place.
    Air Show China 2010

    View Slideshow



    The Wall Street Journal On display at Air Show China in Zuhai late last year: this CIA-style drone with missiles.





    Some experts suggest that this is China's way of responding to U.S. demands for greater transparency about its military build-up—one of the key issues overshadowing Mr. Gates's trip and a state visit to the U.S. by Chinese President Hu Jintao later in January.
    Others suggest the images' publication is designed to send a message that China is emerging as a global military power even faster than most U.S. officials and experts have predicted—including Mr. Gates himself, who downplayed China's stealth fighter prospects in 2009.
    Another theory is that the images were directed more at a Chinese audience in response to a recent agreement between Russia and India—China's two biggest neighbors and former military adversaries—to jointly develop a stealth fighter.
    Most experts agree, however, that it is no accident that the pictures were published just before Mr. Gates arrives in China to meet his counterpart for the first time since military ties were suspended in January last year over U.S. arms sales to Taiwan.
    Chinese authorities routinely delete politically sensitive material from the Internet, and often detain those who post it, but appear to have allowed most of the discussion and images of the J-20 to appear on military and aviation enthusiasts' blogs and websites.
    The J-20 was until recently so secret that it did not have an official name and was known as the J-XX among Western defense and intelligence officials and experts.
    "If anyone can keep a secret, it's China. This week's J-20-fest wasn't an accident," wrote Greg Waldron, deputy Asia editor of GlobalFlight.com, in his blog on the website of Flight International magazine.
    "There are two possible reasons for the easy access the world is getting to the J-20. Either A) the country is trying to be more open, or B) they are trying to send a message," he said.

    Global View Columnist Bret Stephens analyzes the stealth fighter and China's growing firepower.


    Gareth Jennings, aviation desk editor at Jane's Defence Weekly, said: "You definitely get the sense that it's being, not exactly stage-managed, but they're clearly not upset about the images being out there."
    China does have a track record of gradually declassifying military programs by allowing occasional images to appear online, according to Douglas Barrie, senior fellow for military aerospace at the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
    "The timing is interesting as India is an obvious peer competitor," he said. "The officially sanctioned leakings may have been intended for a domestic audience to say: 'It's not just the Indians who'll have one of these; we do too.'"
    However, he said there may have been a "mischievous element" in allowing the images' release just before Mr. Gates's visit.
    Mr. Gates cut funding for the F-22 in 2009, predicting that China would not have any such planes by 2020 and only a handful by 2025.
    A few months later, He Weirong, the deputy head of China's air force, announced that China's first stealth fighters were about to undergo test flights and would be deployed in "eight or 10 years."
    U.S. defense and intelligence officials now say they expect China to start deploying the aircraft by around 2018.
    Vice Adm. David J. Dorsett, the U.S. director of naval intelligence, told reporters this week that China was advancing faster than expected in some areas, although he said he could not tell from the J-20 pictures when it would be fully tested and operational.
    View Slideshow



    Images that appear to show Beijing's prototype stealth fighter jet during a 'taxi test' at a facility in western China.



    "They've entered operational capability quicker than we frequently project," he said, according to an account of the briefing on the U.S. Navy's website.
    "We've been on the mark on an awful lot of our assessments, but there have been a handful of things we've underestimated."
    He said China's military was becoming more open, but not enough to reassure the U.S. about how it plans to use its new capabilities, which include an aircraft carrier and an antiship ballistic missile, both of which are expected to be deployed in the next year or so.
    "Over the years, the Chinese military doctrine was 'hide and bide': hide your resources and bide your time," he said. "They now appear to have shifted into an era where they're willing to show their resources and capabilities."
    Meanwhile, military aviation experts were scrutinizing the J-20 images to see what, if anything, they could tell about the aircraft's capabilities.

    WSJ's Rebecca Blumenstein explains to Simon Constable new photos indicate the possibility that the Chinese military has developed a new stealth fighter jet, confirming fears of a military buildup.


    They can tell little about its stealth capability, as that depends not just on its shape, but on the composite materials it is made from, the paint that covers it, and the technology that it carries on board.
    However, they are hoping to be able to tell if it is using a Chinese engine, as China has been trying for years to develop its own models to replace the Russian ones that it either imports or produces under license to power almost all its jet fighters.
    Some aviation experts said the images suggested that there were either two prototypes undergoing tests, each with a different kind of engine—possibly one Russian and one Chinese — or that two types of engine had been tested in the same prototype.
    The J-20 is expected to be China's first "fifth-generation" fighter, meaning it will likely have radar-evading stealth capability, the ability to cruise at supersonic speeds without using fuel-hungry afterburners, and the capacity to take off and land from a short runway.
    —Yoli Zhang contributed to this article.

  • #2
    Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

    I haven't bothered commenting thus far - but in reality this 'stealth' plane doesn't look in any way stealthy.

    It looks like a Mig27/F15 in fact.

    Secondly 'speed' trials for a stealth plane are an oxymoron.

    I'll freely admit I'm no military expert/nut, but the US stealth planes are far less angular and have a completely different flap system than the J20.

    Just slapping some radar absorptive material onto a supersonic jet fighter doesn't make it stealth.

    As for the Predator equivalent - it is always suspicious when a military device has a nice pretty wavy racing stripe.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

      The thing about military weapons races is that you never really know what the capabilities are of the weapons until they are actually used in combat. Soviet T-72 and T-80 tanks were once seen as near equals to Western tanks but subsequent results in conflicts like Iraq and the Chechen conflict proved otherwise.

      The same thing went on before WWII. The weapons thought to be decisive turned out not to be. Fast bombers were going to run amok, without fighter escort, relying purely on their defensive armament and speed. They were slaughtered when they tried that approach. Tanks were seen by most nations as a supporting arm of the infantry, when in the end the opposite was the case.

      My guess is we will see the same in the future, although the weapons today are vastly more lethal, and I don't think any country wants to risk total war vs another superpower. Weapons will continue to be used in small wars against insurgencies or small nations, and as tools of intimidation. How they would perform against 1st line troops is not as important as how the other side "thinks" they will perform.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

        Originally posted by flintlock
        Soviet T-72 and T-80 tanks were once seen as near equals to Western tanks but subsequent results in conflicts like Iraq and the Chechen conflict proved otherwise.
        It should be noted at least for Iraq, there are very significant differences between 'export' versions and internal versions.

        For example I have read that internal version modern T-series tanks have a dynamic anti-heat seeking missile defense which has no export nor Western counterpart.

        In any case, the point concerning hype vs. fact remains valid.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

          Anyone interested in Chinese war strategy and history can watch the latest Three Kingdom serial (with English subtitles) here - http://www.mysoju.com/three-kingdoms/


          Romance of the Three Kingdoms, written by Luo Guanzhong in the 14th century, is a Chinese historical novel based upon events in the turbulent years near the end of the Han Dynasty and the Three Kingdoms era of China, starting in 169 and ending with the reunification of the land in 280.[1]

          Romance of the Three Kingdoms is acclaimed as one of the Four Great Classical Novels of Chinese literature; it has a total of 800,000 words and nearly a thousand dramatic characters (mostly historical)[2] in 120 chapters. It is arguably the most widely read historical novel in late imperial and modern China.[3]
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_K...28TV_series%29
          Last edited by touchring; January 08, 2011, 10:35 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

            fueling speculation among military officials and experts about why the secretive military would suddenly allow the curtain to be lifted on such a sensitive project.
            My guess as to why, so that Gates will not be able to say that China is behind 10-15 years. US must have know this a long time ago as you can not fly this thing underground.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

              Originally posted by c1ue View Post
              I haven't bothered commenting thus far - but in reality this 'stealth' plane doesn't look in any way stealthy.

              It looks like a Mig27/F15 in fact.

              Secondly 'speed' trials for a stealth plane are an oxymoron.

              I'll freely admit I'm no military expert/nut, but the US stealth planes are far less angular and have a completely different flap system than the J20.

              Just slapping some radar absorptive material onto a supersonic jet fighter doesn't make it stealth.

              As for the Predator equivalent - it is always suspicious when a military device has a nice pretty wavy racing stripe.
              I'm no military expert (or nut as you say) either, but that plane looks a lot like our YF-23. The design that lost against the F-22 mentioned in the article. Google images has some profile pictures.

              That said, putting some tinfoil on, perhaps these photos are meant to show more than just some sort of design or technological advancement. Perhaps they're meant to show intelligence gathering capabilities?

              Btw - I think every plane - including fat ass cargo planes - goes through speed trials.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                I think it may not be a "stealth" fighter per se. The chinese may call it stealth, but that does not make it so. Never accept as gospel the press releases of any military. It appears to be a low radar signature profile. Although from behind with those after burner nozzles it would show up on radar like a christmas tree!!!! Like wise for the intakes up front!
                We are all little cockroaches running around guessing when the FED will turn OFF the Lights.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                  China remains a land bound military power. Her across-open-water force projection is minimal. Incapable of withstanding the 7th Fleet in any Taiwan invasion scenario.

                  Mission Accomplished?

                  U.S. Will Counter Chinese Arms Buildup

                  By ELISABETH BUMILLER

                  BEIJING — The Pentagon is stepping up investments in a range of weapons, jet fighters and technology in response to the Chinese military buildup in the Pacific, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said Saturday on the eve of his visit to Beijing.

                  Despite billions of dollars in proposed Pentagon budget cuts that Mr. Gates announced this past week, he said that the Chinese development of its first radar-evading fighter jet, as well as an antiship ballistic missile that could hit American aircraft carriers, had persuaded him to make improvements in American weaponry a priority.

                  “They clearly have potential to put some of our capabilities at risk, and we have to pay attention to them, we have to respond appropriately with our own programs,” Mr. Gates said.

                  At the same time Mr. Gates doused China’s proud rollout this past week of its new stealth fighter jet, the J-20, saying that even though it was a matter for concern, there “is some question about just how stealthy” it is.

                  Mr. Gates made his comments to reporters before arriving Sunday night in Beijing, where he is on a three-day visit for talks with Chinese generals and President Hu Jintao that are meant to promote a more open and stable relationship between the American and Chinese militaries.

                  It is unclear what effect Mr. Gates’s comments will have on the talks, which are occurring a week before President Hu is to meet with President Obama in Washington.

                  The American weapons that Mr. Gates was referring to included investments in a new long-range nuclear-capable bomber aircraft, which the Pentagon had stopped developing in 2009, as well as a new generation of electronic jammers for the Navy that are designed to thwart a missile from finding and hitting a target. At a Pentagon briefing on Thursday, Mr. Gates said that the jammers would improve the Navy’s ability to “fight and survive” in waters where it is challenged.

                  Mr. Gates was also referring to continued investment in the Joint Strike Fighter, the Pentagon’s newest radar-evading fighter jet.

                  The Pentagon provided no estimate on Saturday of the total cost of the three programs or others meant to counter the Chinese buildup in the Pacific.

                  Although Pentagon officials say that China is a generation or more behind the United States in military technology, Mr. Gates said he has been worried about the Chinese buildup in his four years as defense secretary. And acknowledged that the Pentagon and intelligence agencies had underestimated how quickly the Chinese could act.

                  “We’ve been watching these developments all along,” Mr. Gates said.

                  “I’ve been concerned about the development of the antiship cruise and ballistic missiles ever since I took this job,” he added. “We knew they were working on a stealth aircraft. I think that what we’ve seen is that they may be somewhat further ahead in the development of that aircraft than our intelligence had earlier predicted.”

                  Mr. Gates said he hoped his talks with Chinese leaders would reduce the need for more American weaponry in the Pacific. He also said that if Chinese leaders considered the United States a declining power because of the financial crisis, they were wrong.

                  “I’ve watched this sort of cyclical view of American decline come around two or three times, perhaps most dramatically in the latter half of the 1970s,” Mr. Gates said. “And my general line for those both at home and around the world who think the U.S. is in decline is that history’s dustbins are filled with countries that underestimated the resilience of the United States.”

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/wo...itary.html?hpw
                  Last edited by don; January 09, 2011, 02:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                    Originally posted by jacobdcoates View Post
                    I think it may not be a "stealth" fighter per se. The chinese may call it stealth, but that does not make it so. Never accept as gospel the press releases of any military. It appears to be a low radar signature profile. Although from behind with those after burner nozzles it would show up on radar like a christmas tree!!!! Like wise for the intakes up front!


                    Yup, actually, I can't understand what's the big fuss about stealth fighter, the Chinese were dirt poor in the 1960s, people were starving to death by the tens of millions, but they could develop nukes.

                    Now they are rich, what else they can't develop?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                      To be sure, some of China's recent industrial and technological achievements have been impressive. But getting a world-beating stealth fighter into active service within the next decade is a fearsome challenge, even by Chinese standards.

                      The J-20's unveiling was little more than a publicity stunt on the part of a government that would sooner try to stoke, rather than calm, American fears. A mishmash of outdated US and Russian design features, the aircraft displayed no signs of genuine Chinese innovation and remained a decade away from active service, its detractors have argued. As a weapon system, its primary role was as a pin with which to prick Gates, whose bridge-building to Beijing coincided with the aircraft's appearance on the Chengdu tarmac.

                      What's clear from the pictures crowding the Chinese blogosphere is that the J-20 is a big aircraft, which may point to a future role as a long-range interceptor or as an anti-access weapon with the ability to operate beyond the second island chain, which includes Guam, home to an important US airbase. However, China's air-to-air refueling capability is not yet mature enough to support this kind of long-range mission, and the J-20's size may point to technical limitations - most likely with the plane's engines, which Chinese industry is yet to build capably - rather than strategic choice.

                      Whatever the case, the American defense lobby was always likely to interpret the J-20 as a severe threat to US security, having fought a long (and unsuccessful) campaign to keep building the F-22 - an air superiority fighter which they regard as the ultimate guarantor of America's command of the skies. Indeed, the J-20 may have handed the F-22 one final lifeline. Gates, who killed the F-22 program, is about to step down, and his replacement could conceivably hand the Raptor an eleventh-hour reprieve and keep the production line turning.

                      However, any such a decision would be most wisely taken as a hedge against further pitfalls in the development path of the F-35, the aircraft selected as the mainstay of future US air power at the F-22's expense - and not as a knee-jerk reaction to the J-20's arrival.

                      "This is a useful reminder that more F-22s would be good," says aviation analyst Richard Aboulafia, the vice president of analysis at the Teal Group and an advocate of the proven Raptor. "But any suggestion that the Chinese have reached parity with the West is absolutely ridiculous. It's an awful lot of hysteria. The J-20 represents a certain degree of progress, but it is very far from being anything like a current-generation US aircraft."

                      In Aboulafia's estimation, the J-20 prototype "looked very unimpressive". He says that the aircraft is oversized and that its canards - the fins positioned between the cockpit and the wings - will reduce its stealth characteristics. Its shape is reminiscent of "how you designed planes in the 1980s", he suggests. The J-20's front end does indeed look a lot like an F-22, which first flew in 1990, while its back end recalls an old Russian MiG prototype. So the J-20 does not, it seems, signify a breakthrough in indigenous Chinese innovation, instead splicing together used American and Russian ideas.

                      In any case, "the real challenge isn't building a prototype," Aboulafia continues. "It's getting all the capable industries that give you the key enablers." His point is that while nobody knows what kind of systems are inside the machine that flew on January 10, China is believed not to have developed the many supporting industries - the providers of technologies such as engines, electronic warfare systems, advanced radar, data links, sensor fusion software, command and control systems - that would make the J-20 a true threat to the US military.

                      As such, even if the J-20 does enter production seven to ten years from now, it is unlikely to be in the same technological class as the F-22, the F-35, or the T-50, a Russian stealth jet which had its first flight last year.

                      Only one aspect of the J-20 saga appears beyond dispute: that the plane's unveiling was carefully stage-managed to coincide with Gates' visit. It is worrying that the Chinese should have sought to ruffle Gates at a time when he was visiting Beijing specifically to mend Sino-US military relations. But in the end, China's shock tactics may have backfired: Gates' Pentagon analysts most likely told him that the J-20 is nothing much to worry about. Maybe Beijing's top brass should have listened to Deng after all.

                      Trefor Moss is a freelance journalist who covers Asian politics, in particular defense, security and economic issues. He is a former Asia-Pacific editor for Jane's Defense Weekly.

                      http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/MA14Ad02.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                        Originally posted by don View Post
                        What's clear from the pictures crowding the Chinese blogosphere is that the J-20 is a big aircraft, which may point to a future role as a long-range interceptor or as an anti-access weapon with the ability to operate beyond the second island chain, which includes Guam, home to an important US airbase. However, China's air-to-air refueling capability is not yet mature enough to support this kind of long-range mission, and the J-20's size may point to technical limitations - most likely with the plane's engines, which Chinese industry is yet to build capably - rather than strategic choice.

                        It has been proven so far that Western analysts have always underestimated China's ability.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                          Originally Posted by jacobdcoates
                          I think it may not be a "stealth" fighter per se. The chinese may call it stealth, but that does not make it so. Never accept as gospel the press releases of any military. It appears to be a low radar signature profile. Although from behind with those after burner nozzles it would show up on radar like a christmas tree!!!! Like wise for the intakes up front!


                          Agree with all your points. I was involved in defense aerospace in the late 1980's/early 90s, and it looks like this plane is at least a generation behind.

                          I'd never underestimate how competent the chinese can and will be, but stealth technology is based on a wide range of expertise and technologies that are all developed over many years, and based on what the world buys from china, I think that goes beyond the present industrial base.

                          That said, the "ship killer" ballistic missles are long hanging fruit for improving their odds.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                            Originally posted by touchring
                            Yup, actually, I can't understand what's the big fuss about stealth fighter, the Chinese were dirt poor in the 1960s, people were starving to death by the tens of millions, but they could develop nukes.
                            Again you show your ignorance.

                            If you have the materials, it is not at all difficult to construct a nuclear weapon. The result might not be as optimized as the ones in the US/Russia are, but it will be far better than the ones dropped on Japan.

                            And since Russia was helping China build the nuclear power plants, access to material wasn't an issue.

                            Modern combat equipment on the other hand requires a lot more infrastructure: electronics, materials science, manufacturing, etc etc.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: China provides a glimpse into newest high tech arsenal

                              Originally posted by wayiwalk View Post
                              I'd never underestimate how competent the chinese can and will be, but stealth technology is based on a wide range of expertise and technologies that are all developed over many years, and based on what the world buys from china, I think that goes beyond the present industrial base.

                              That said, the "ship killer" ballistic missles are long hanging fruit for improving their odds.

                              Have you considered the option of copying? With money, what design cannot be bought?

                              And if you noticed, China is the technological leader in computer espionage.
                              Last edited by touchring; January 13, 2011, 12:36 PM.

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