A call to arms from *T*

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

And just what should this new society look like? Will it be a Libertarian utopia where people are left alone to succeed (but unfortunately for the majority likely fail) on their own merits? Will it be a Socialist utopia where the state "guarantees" the people much but when TSHTF actually provides very little. Will it be a mix of the two? If so wouldn't we just be rearranging the deck chairs?

Neither of these choices—a Libertarian utopia or a Socialist economy—offers a promising future, as you point out. The historical challenge we face is coming up with something new—a free and livable society in which real power is decentralized in the hands of communities and freely-associated individuals who make the decisions which will impact their lives and are free to contribute in ways they can to the good of all.

Authoritarian models of society justify themselves with the “people suck” view of human nature; since people suck, they need to be controlled by powerful authorities. A promising new society can only be based on a positive view of human beings. Yes, there are certainly some psychopaths about--after all, just look at who's running the show in the US--and our present society encourages the worst in people—greed, selfishness, looking out for Number One. But most people even in this society try to create relationships with family and friends based on love and mutual respect. Our confidence in the possibility of a new society comes from realizing that the values that could build that society are already present in most people’s lives.


Some friends and I have been trying to flesh out some ideas for a new society. Here are some ideas that we propose—tentatively, waiting for discussion and suggestions from all who are interested. I would welcome comments, criticisms, and suggestions from anyone reading this.



We propose a democratic revolution—one made by the great majority of people taking power into their own hands, removing from power the former ruling elite, and using this power to reshape society on the basis of the following core principles:


1. Mutual aid: Capitalist society encourages dog-eat-dog competition. A new society would encourage mutual aid and cooperation.

2. Equality: People should have equal accesss to the earth’s and society's resources. The wealth produced by society should belong to all of society, not to particular individuals, corporations, etc.

3. A free economy: All people who contribute a mutually agreed-upon fair amount (given one’s ability) to the public well being, and only such people, have a right to take freely what they need in the way of economic commodities and services when there is enough for all. They have an equal right to things that are scarce and need to be rationed. These rights trump all claims to private ownership of property. Those who contribute their fair share to society decide how generous they will be towards those who do not contribute. For example, if there are slackers, it is up to the community to decide how best to deal with them.


4. Democracy: In the new society, power would be decentralized and reside locally. People who support democratic revolution would form assemblies in their neighborhoods, communities, workplaces, etc., and at local, regional, and national levels. These assemblies would investigate the needs of the people in their area for food, shelter, clothing, and other necessities, and would plan how to fulfill them. They would join with other communities to form regional and national assemblies to plan how to meet needs and solve problems that go beyond local resources or boundaries.


a. Social order would arise not from laws written and enforced from above but from agreements and compromises among the people. The revolution will not succeed unless the side supporting the principles of democratic revolution prevails over counterrevolutionaries fundamentally opposed to these principles.

b. People who support democratic revolution principles form local Assemblies where they work or live, to decide what to do and how to do it as they see fit:

i. At a place of work, assembled workers decide, among other things, what products to make or services to provide, for whom and for what purpose, and how to organize production (e.g. they may wish to change job descriptions in order to avoid the separation of people into those who do only manual and those who do only mental labor). These assemblies federate with other workplaces to deal with matters such as supplies, transport, planning, etc.

c. In order to reach agreement or compromise among multiple local Assemblies and thereby have coherent regional, national and international policies and planning, the principle of federation is employed:

i. Local Assemblies choose delegates to sit on higher level (that is, regional) Assemblies and regional Assemblies choose delegates to sit on yet higher level Assemblies (with delegates from across a larger region like a state), etc. thus making it possible to have Assemblies with input from people over as large a region as necessary for a given purpose. Any Assembly may recall its delegate whenever it wishes. These Assemblies are open to all.

ii. The role of regional, national or any non-local Assembly is to receive information, opinions and proposals from the lower level Assemblies and develop proposals—not laws—based on appropriate compromises when lower level Assemblies disagree, for cooperative action by the lower level Assemblies.

iii. People are encouraged to form Assemblies for any purpose they see a need, so there could be many different Assemblies at any given level, each remaining in existence for different lengths of time, as appropriate for their particular objective(s).

iv. One key objective to accomplish by such federation is to quickly establish free economies among as many communities, regions and countries as possible; the more inclusive of the entire world’s population a single large free economy becomes, the better are the chances of the revolution succeeding and being able to defeat counterrevolution.

For these changes to take place it is necessary that the ruling elite be rendered powerless. This will happen when the revolutionary movement achieves “critical mass”: when the movement is so large and is so clear about the principles by which it wishes to shape society that great numbers of soldiers and other armed members of the various “security” forces refuse to obey orders to attack it, and join the revolutionary movement to disarm those who might attack it violently.
***************
(This is only a piece of a longer draft document. For writings on related matters, see our site at newdemocracyworld.org. For a copy of the completed draft, contact me at newdem@aol.com)

[Starving Steve]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

I like the idea of co-operatives being formed by people, such as utility co-operatives, banking co-operatives, condominium and apartment co-ops, land banks, etc. This is a very old idea, and it was done in The "Little" Depression of the 1930s--- with some limited success.

Saskatchewan is really a co-operative commonwealth, at least that was the NDP vision of Saskatchewan in the 1930s.

Our neighbourhood here in East Sooke, British Columbia could run its own water utility, and save rate-payer's a fortune. But the liability issues of providing drinking-water are serious. The co-operative would have to be immune from law-suits--- something that is easy to say, but not so easy to do. Everyone joining the co-op would have to fore-go their right to sue the co-op or its manager, no matter what happens.

To-day, people love law-suits--- and so do lawyers. That is a huge problem.

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

I like the idea of co-operatives being formed by people, such as utility co-operatives, banking co-operatives, condominium and apartment co-ops, land banks, etc. This is a very old idea, and it was done in The "Little" Depression of the 1930s--- with some limited success.

Saskatchewan is really a co-operative commonwealth, at least that was the NDP vision of Saskatchewan in the 1930s.

Our neighbourhood here in East Sooke, British Columbia could run its own water utility, and save rate-payer's a fortune. But the liability issues of providing drinking-water are serious. The co-operative would have to be immune from law-suits--- something that is easy to say, but not so easy to do. Everyone joining the co-op would have to fore-go their right to sue the co-op or its manager, no matter what happens.

To-day, people love law-suits--- and so do lawyers. That is a huge problem.

There are a number--43, I think--of municipal power and light companies in small and medium-sized towns in Massachusetts. I don't know if any of them are cooperatives. My understanding is that people in those towns have been spared the rate increases we who are served by the large regional companies have experienced.

[lektrode]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

in 'editing' my prev post

Kevin Poulsen and Adrian Lamo are traitors and should be hung.
I fixed that for you.

You're welcome.

uh.. thanks, i think - not familiar with those 2 names, whois: poulson/lamo?

and then, in an apparent objection to my opinion that those who violate the chain of command

Yes, the imperial games must go on without the peasants being aware. Hang him high!

while i appreciate that viewpoint, when people entrusted with the power (of information) that has the potential to bring death and destruction to the 300 million of the rest of us - even _if_ what they have done _might_ end up doing something good???
then this peasant objects to the idea that one person, one _gov_ employee, thinks himself so omnipotent that he, undoubtably enabled by HUGE ego, is entitled, in his own little mind, to start a snowball that could end up with ww3.

and that when an obvious megalomaniac, in an effort to distract attention from his own questionable behaviour (with the lamestream media already spinning rape charges as a 'he-said, she-said, in classic tail-waggin-the-dog mode)???

yeah, somebody should hang for this, because if we allow anarchist behaviour to disrupt the operation of the US military and diplomatic functions?

we're all dead and it could happen much quicker than any of us want to believe.

just sayin.

but hey!
its a sunny day to start this New Year (where i am, at the moment) and i'm not going to invest any more time hotly debating people who are likely far more educated/informed (and opinionated) than i am - since that is, afterall, why i started hanging out here, to observe/learn, not argue ;)

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

" e.) Ask your Scottish Parliament why the Lockarbie bomber was released to Libya?"

Steve--

You've brought up the Lockarbie case a number of times. I don't know if perhaps you lost a loved one to that crime or if you have other reasons for focusing on it. But I wonder if you have ever reviewed the case and all the reasons to believe that the evidence was faked and that the Libyan convicted of the bombing was quite innocent. (Reading through the trial report on Wikipedia I cam across this curious interchange:

"One of the last witnesses for the prosecution was broadcaster and politician, Pierre Salinger, who was questioned by prosecutor Alan Turnbull and by both defence counsel William Taylor and Richard Keen. After his testimony, judge Lord Sutherland asked Salinger to leave the witness box. However, the broadcaster responded:

"That's all? You're not letting me tell the truth. Wait a minute, I know exactly who did it. I know how it was done."

But Lord Sutherland told Salinger:

"If you wish to make a point you may do so elsewhere, but I'm afraid you may not do so in this court."^[15]"

Here are several relevant articles:http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/Po...was.2656485.jp
Police chief- Lockerbie evidence was faked




Published Date: 28 August 2005
By MARCELLO MEGA



A FORMER Scottish police chief has given lawyers a signed statement claiming that key evidence in the Lockerbie bombing trial was fabricated.

The retired officer - of assistant chief constable rank or higher - has testified that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for the 1989 mass murder of 270 people.

The police chief, whose identity has not yet been revealed, gave the statement to lawyers representing Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, currently serving a life sentence in Greenock Prison.

The evidence will form a crucial part of Megrahi's attempt to have a retrial ordered by the Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission (SCCRC). The claims pose a potentially devastating threat to the reputation of the entire Scottish legal system.

The officer, who was a member of the Association of Chief Police Officers Scotland, is supporting earlier claims by a former CIA agent that his bosses "wrote the script" to incriminate Libya.

Last night, George Esson, who was Chief Constable of Dumfries and Galloway when Megrahi was indicted for mass murder, confirmed he was aware of the development.

But Esson, who retired in 1994, questioned the officer's motives. He said: "Any police officer who believed they had knowledge of any element of fabrication in any criminal case would have a duty to act on that. Failure to do so would call into question their integrity, and I can't help but question their motive for raising the matter now."

Other important questions remain unanswered, such as how the officer learned of the alleged conspiracy and whether he was directly involved in the inquiry. But sources close to Megrahi's legal team believe they may have finally discovered the evidence that could demolish the case against him.

An insider told Scotland on Sunday that the retired officer approached them after Megrahi's appeal - before a bench of five Scottish judges - was dismissed in 2002.

The insider said: "He said he believed he had crucial information. A meeting was set up and he gave a statement that supported the long-standing rumours that the key piece of evidence, a fragment of circuit board from a timing device that implicated Libya, had been planted by US agents.

"Asked why he had not come forward before, he admitted he'd been wary of breaking ranks, afraid of being vilified.

"He also said that at the time he became aware of the matter, no one really believed there would ever be a trial. When it did come about, he believed both accused would be acquitted. When Megrahi was convicted, he told himself he'd be cleared at appeal."

The source added: "When that also failed, he explained he felt he had to come forward.

"He has confirmed that parts of the case were fabricated and that evidence was planted. At first he requested anonymity, but has backed down and will be identified if and when the case returns to the appeal court."

The vital evidence that linked the bombing of Pan Am 103 to Megrahi was a tiny fragment of circuit board which investigators found in a wooded area many miles from Lockerbie months after the atrocity.

The fragment was later identified by the FBI's Thomas Thurman as being part of a sophisticated timer device used to detonate explosives, and manufactured by the Swiss firm Mebo, which supplied it only to Libya and the East German Stasi.

At one time, Megrahi, a Libyan intelligence agent, was such a regular visitor to Mebo that he had his own office in the firm's headquarters.

The fragment of circuit board therefore enabled Libya - and Megrahi - to be placed at the heart of the investigation. However, Thurman was later unmasked as a fraud who had given false evidence in American murder trials, and it emerged that he had little in the way of scientific qualifications.

Then, in 2003, a retired CIA officer gave a statement to Megrahi's lawyers in which he alleged evidence had been planted.

The decision of a former Scottish police chief to back this claim could add enormous weight to what has previously been dismissed as a wild conspiracy theory. It has long been rumoured the fragment was planted to implicate Libya for political reasons.

The first suspects in the case were the Syrian-led Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine - General Command (PFLP-GC), a terror group backed by Iranian cash. But the first Gulf War altered diplomatic relations with Middle East nations, and Libya became the pariah state.

Following the trial, legal observers from around the world, including senior United Nations officials, expressed disquiet about the verdict and the conduct of the proceedings at Camp Zeist, Holland. Those doubts were first fuelled when internal documents emerged from the offices of the US Defence Intelligence Agency. Dated 1994, more than two years after the Libyans were identified to the world as the bombers, they still described the PFLP-GC as the Lockerbie bombers.

A source close to Megrahi's defence said: "Britain and the US were telling the world it was Libya, but in their private communications they acknowledged that they knew it was the PFLP-GC.

"The case is starting to unravel largely because when they wrote the script, they never expected to have to act it out. Nobody expected agreement for a trial to be reached, but it was, and in preparing a manufactured case, mistakes were made."

Dr Jim Swire, who has publicly expressed his belief in Megrahi's innocence, said it was quite right that all relevant information now be put to the SCCRC.

Swire, whose daughter Flora was killed in the atrocity, said last night: "I am aware that there have been doubts about how some of the evidence in the case came to be presented in court.

"It is in all our interests that areas of doubt are thoroughly examined."

A spokeswoman for the Crown Office said: "As this case is currently being examined by the SCCRC, it would be inappropriate to comment."

No one from the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland was available to comment.
************
See also:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz19oNofjQz

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n15670303/



http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/0...-evidence.html

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

"yeah, somebody should hang for this, because if we allow anarchist behaviour to disrupt the operation of the US military and diplomatic functions?"

OMG, what if US military and diplomatic functions should be disrupted??!! Innocent people might be saved!!

[lektrode]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

"yeah, somebody should hang for this, because if we allow anarchist behaviour to disrupt the operation of the US military and diplomatic functions?"

OMG, what if US military and diplomatic functions should be disrupted??!! Innocent people might be saved!!

yeah, i wont disagree with that, but it shouldnt happen because ONE idiot decides to...

and the ONLY way to fix _all_ of the problems suggested by that statement is ***TERM LIMITS FOR CONGRESS***

we need to flush the aristocracy from washington that has hijacked this country over the past 50 years or so and until there are term limits, nothing will change - they'll just keep re-arranging the deck chairs every couple of years, while the oligarchs have their 275foot lifeboats made ready for the final cruise to the cayman islands....

[radon]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

in 'editing' my prev post


uh.. thanks, i think - not familiar with those 2 names, whois: poulson/lamo?

and then, in an apparent objection to my opinion that those who violate the chain of command

You may want to take a moment and familiarize yourself with the details of the issue.

If you have the opinion that blind allegiance to authority is somehow moral regardless of the circumstances then we little to discuss.

[Starving Steve]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

Thank you for your very interesting post!

If the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was responsible for the Pan Am Flt. 103 bombing and crash into Lockarbie, and if the General Command of the PFLP was employed by the gang running Iran now, then why isn't Washington going to war against Tehran? Wouldn't some drones be in order now--- to make their New Year bright? I like the concept of "shock-'n-awe".

I think the new U.S. Senate should investigate these revelations because the U.S. media has been rather silent about them.

Thank you, and I will pay-attention closely to what Washington does now.... I am sure that I will be very impressed!

[Starving Steve]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

There are a number--43, I think--of municipal power and light companies in small and medium-sized towns in Massachusetts. I don't know if any of them are cooperatives. My understanding is that people in those towns have been spared the rate increases we who are served by the large regional companies have experienced.

Our water is delivered to us by the Capitol Regional District of Greater Victoria, BC. They are a regional-planning group, under the direction of the Province of BC.

Under the CRD of Victoria, our water bills have gone from $12 per month under Wilderness Mountain Water Corporation to now $109 per month, and that rise has been in the last few years. So, it was a rise of almost 10X in water rates to go from a small private water-system to the present, CRD managed water-system.

According to the CRD, my neighbourhood could someday be short of water. It never stops raining for very long, but we could someday be short of water.

Needless to say, the CRD uses its new-found revenue derived from water-charges to pay for new water-quality studies, consultants, forecasts, public meetings, habitat issues, compliance studies, removing the last molecule of some so-called, "pollutant" out of drinking-water, state-of-the-art equipment, etc.

This is like a bad dream, and the public still doesn't even know what has hit them.

[Mn_Mark]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

"
The retired officer - of assistant chief constable rank or higher - has testified that the CIA planted the tiny fragment of circuit board crucial in convicting a Libyan for the 1989 mass murder of 270 people.

I am so tired of this left-wing narrative where every wrong that is done to America - especially if done by an exotic foreign people - was actually a secret plot committed by the US government or the CIA or whatever.

Anything bad that happens - like 9/11 - was, according to these types, secretly committed by the U.S. government, or if the evidence is too overwhelming to argue with, then they say we had it coming.

Anything good that America accomplishes - like the moon landing - was, according to these types, not actually accomplished by America and was either faked or really done by someone else.

They never miss a chance to blame or denigrate or disparage the U.S.

The Left is the enemy of the U.S. It's as simple as that. They are a fifth column force looking to demoralize and destroy the country. And they wonder why people think they're unpatriotic or un-American.

[*T*]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

you need to read up on the USS Liberty

I looked, but I don't see the connection?

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

I am so tired of this left-wing narrative where every wrong that is done to America - especially if done by an exotic foreign people - was actually a secret plot committed by the US government or the CIA or whatever.

Anything bad that happens - like 9/11 - was, according to these types, secretly committed by the U.S. government, or if the evidence is too overwhelming to argue with, then they say we had it coming.

Anything good that America accomplishes - like the moon landing - was, according to these types, not actually accomplished by America and was either faked or really done by someone else.

They never miss a chance to blame or denigrate or disparage the U.S.

The Left is the enemy of the U.S. It's as simple as that. They are a fifth column force looking to demoralize and destroy the country. And they wonder why people think they're unpatriotic or un-American.

On reading your comments several questions come to mind:
1) Who is the Left-winger trying to destroy America here? The retired CIA agent who testified that the CIA had planted evidence? The Scottish Police Chief who backed him up? Or me for reproducing the article?
2) Do you not care at all about the truth? Or do you automatically back up the--in this case Scottish--authorities, whether they are lying or not?
3) Do you think there is no difference between America and the federal government? Do you think we should never question the government?
4)What could be more demoralizing or destructive of its people than this government of banksters and war criminals?

[Dave Stratman]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

Thank you for your very interesting post!

If the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine was responsible for the Pan Am Flt. 103 bombing and crash into Lockarbie, and if the General Command of the PFLP was employed by the gang running Iran now, then why isn't Washington going to war against Tehran? Wouldn't some drones be in order now--- to make their New Year bright? I like the concept of "shock-'n-awe".

I think the new U.S. Senate should investigate these revelations because the U.S. media has been rather silent about them.

Thank you, and I will pay-attention closely to what Washington does now.... I am sure that I will be very impressed!

I wouldn't be too quick to accept the U.S. government's word now that the Palestinians were responsible for it. They were lying about Libya; why should they not be lying about the PFLP as well? My impression is that a large share of, if not most, terrorism is organized and carried by governments to blacken the name of the supposed perpetrators. Israeli and US intelligence services have a history of terrorist acts designed to cast blame on Palestinians or other Arab people.

Perhaps the most famous--and heinous--of these is the raid on the Achille Lauro and the murder of Klinghofer, a wheel-chair bound Jew who was killed and pitched overboard, to the horror of the passengers and the world. Ari Ben-Menashe tells the story in his Profits of War, pp. 120-22. Ben Menashe was a special intelligence adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir and one of the six members of Israel's top-secret Joint Committee on Israel-Iran Relations, responsible for the transfer of billions of dollars of arms to Iran during the 1980s.

Ben Menashe writes: "The [antiterrorist group in Israel run by Rafi Eitan] group's methods were rather unconventional, one could say heinous, but it had operated successfully for years. An example is the case of the "Palestinian" attack on the cruise ship Achille Lauro in 1985. That was, in fact, an Israeli "black" propaganda operation to show what a deadly, cutthroat bunch the Palestinians were....The operation worked like this: Eitan passed instructions to Radi [a gun runner being run by Mossad] that it was time for the Palestinians to make an attack and do something cruel, though no specifics were laid out. Radi passed orders on to Abu'l Abbaas, who, to follow such orders, was receiving millions from Israeli intelligence officers posing as Sicilian dons. Abbas then gathered a team to attack the cruise ship. The team was told to make it bad, to show the world what lay in store for other unsuspecting citizens if Palestinian demands were not met. As the world knows, the group picked on an elderly American Jewish man in a wheelchair, killed him, and threw his body overboard. They made their point. But for Israel it was the best kind of anti-Palestinian propaganda."

I doubt if there if there is one person in a thousand who knows that this crime was organized and directed by Israeli intelligence. It was used to terrible effect to paint the Palestinians as murderers, when the real savages are Mossad and the Israeli leadership, who will stop at no crime to strengthen their hold on power.

[Starving Steve]

Re: A call to arms from *T*

On reading your comments several questions come to mind:
1) Who is the Left-winger trying to destroy America here? The retired CIA agent who testified that the CIA had planted evidence? The Scottish Police Chief who backed him up? Or me for reproducing the article?
2) Do you not care at all about the truth? Or do you automatically back up the--in this case Scottish--authorities, whether they are lying or not?
3) Do you think there is no difference between America and the federal government? Do you think we should never question the government?
4)What could be more demoralizing or destructive of its people than this government of banksters and war criminals?

As for now, I would believe the CIA and the U.S. Government long before I would believe the gang running the Government of Iran.

I am awaiting an investigation of the Lockarbie story--- the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockarbie, Scotland and the events that occurred subsequent to that bombing and crash into Lockarbie, Scotland. For now, I will keep an open-mind, but I don't like explanations offerred here that require pigs to fly and zebras to be pink and space-aliens to land in Area 51. In other words, I want an economic explanation that fits all of the evidence, and I do not want "spin".

I am going through this same exercise in reasoning with the global-warming bunch. If their climate models are calibrated correctly, then why aren't sea-levels rising and flooding into San Francisco's downtown right now? A reasonable explanation must fit all of the data and easily answer all of the critical questions, and more.

When I glance at NOAA's own graph of temperatures at San Francisco Airport just this fall, I see no change in the trend. It is like watching a drunk staggering around a lamp-post. The temperature trend always reverts to the 30-year mean, just as the drunk keeps reverting back to the lamp-post.

For now, on both the anthropogenic global-warming hypothesis and on the release of the Lockarbie bomber, I will be silent and watch how the evidence is explained by others.... Next to offer an explanation of the events involving the crash of Pan Am Flight 103 will be the U.S. Senate in 2011.

And according to the Tehran bunch ( the Govn't of Iran ), the Holocaust in WWII was a hoax. We heard that at the World Islamic Conference this past year. So we have the credibility issue of those who do the explaining, i.e: malas manos. And similarly, with the climate-change modellers at NOAA, we have the faking of the temperature data to make the models predict whatever they want to predict..... But I will sit-back and watch what they post.

NOAA's own temperature data at SF Airport (or whatever airport you may want to pick) shows no change in the 30-year trend. Their graphs tell the story beautifully and nicely contradict NOAA's maps..... But convince me, otherwise.