Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

[zoog]

...U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson found that Congress could not order individuals to buy health insurance.

In a 42-page opinion, Hudson said the provision of the law that requires most individuals to get insurance or pay a fine by 2014 is an unprecedented expansion of federal power that cannot be supported by Congress's power to regulate interstate trade.

"Neither the Supreme Court nor any federal circuit court of appeals has extended Commerce Clause powers to compel an individual to involuntarily enter the stream of commerce by purchasing a commodity in the private market," he wrote. "In doing so, enactment of the [individual mandate] exceeds the Commerce Clause powers vested in Congress under Article I [of the Constitution.]
.
.
.
It is one of 25 legal challenges to the federal law wending their way through the federal courts across the country. In two other lawsuits, judges sitting in Michigan and Lynchburg, Va., have found that the same provision of the law passed legal muster. A third judge in Florida is also weighing constitutionality of the individual mandate in a suit jointly filed by 20 states.

washington post

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

[don]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

This isn't requiring people, on pain of penalties, to buy private health insurance? If this was universal health, with a tax bump, I would agree. This is FIRE BS.

[c1ue]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

The problem with this statement is that all of the items listed are non-profit (I exclude private universities).

To lump public goods like firefighting, law enforcement, and primary education with buying health insurance from a for-profit institution like a health care insurance company is wrong.

As Dr. Michael Hudson noted - one of the specific tenets of a public good is that it be provided at cost in order to avoid monopolistic tax- or fee- farming.

Coercion into buying private health insurance is precisely that - no different than being forced to pay protection money to Bennie the Thug.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

It is widely accepted that our government is allowed to collect taxes and to fund services.

It is not accepted nor allowed for in the Constitution that our government impose unfunded mandates on all citizens requiring them to explicitly purchase certain goods or services.

I my view, it is best we keep it this way.

[Master Shake]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Hallelujah! A voice of sanity.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

rand paul once went on television and said he's against the civil right acts. I respected him for that.

This... this is just dishonest.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

This... this is just dishonest.

What's dishonest? The Health Care bill, the judges ruling against it, or something else?

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

Those services are paid through taxes, not through individuals paying to a private party selling a service.

If health care in the United States were a public service, then this wouldn't be the issue that it currently has become. Of course, even a public option was taken off the table by FIRE economy interests.

[blazespinnaker]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

That's not true at all, police/fire/school/etc have plenty of private aspects to them.

I'd even be happy to argue that police/fire/school/etc should be completely privatized. Government run anything is usually dumb..

[Milton Kuo]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

That's not true at all, police/fire/school/etc have plenty of private aspects to them.

I'd even be happy to argue that police/fire/school/etc should be completely privatized. Government run anything is usually dumb..

I am unaware of any police department or fire department in the U.S. today that is privately run. The people whom these departments serve pay into the system through taxes levied by a government. Same goes for all public schools. It's not clear to me what you mean by private aspects to the aforementioned three services.

It's difficult for me to see how privatized police departments and fire departments would work being that these services seem best structured as monopolies. With that in mind, privatization would lead to the usual problems with private monopolies unless tightly regulated with special emphasis on executive compensation.

For what it's worth, I don't believe government is the answer to everything, which is sometimes the feeling I get is Dr. Michael Hudson's view on many matters. However, for certain things, I'd rather roll the dice with government than unregulated or poorly-regulated private industry.

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

It is not moronic

You missed the point entirely

What the judge says it that congress does not legally have certain authority. It just might be that a local jurisdiction has the legal authority to require the items you mentioned.

One thing I have learned for sure is this. Just because somebody passed a law does not mean it has to make any logical sense to everyone or anyone for that matter.

If I apply what you said then I could say then I might believe that congresss could require everone to buy fruitloops. That is equally moronic,

Cindy

[Spartacus]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

wasn't the commerce clause used to force US persons to STOP buying marijuana? IIRC it was clear to everyone the commerce clause could NOT be used for that (like it had not been used to do the same thing to alcohol earlier) but the USupremes applied it that way anyway ... extending federal power far, FAR ahead of any intent. My understanding anyway ... one of my US friends can correct me.

but today it can't be used to force US persons to START buying stuff? A differentially, vanishingly, infinitessimally small extension of federal power, compared to the earlier decision?

...U.S. District Court Judge Henry E. Hudson found that Congress could not order individuals to buy health insurance.

In a 42-page opinion, Hudson said the provision of the law that requires most individuals to get insurance or pay a fine by 2014 is an unprecedented expansion of federal power that cannot be supported by Congress's power to regulate interstate trade.

"Neither the Supreme Court nor any federal circuit court of appeals has extended Commerce Clause powers to compel an individual to involuntarily enter the stream of commerce by purchasing a commodity in the private market," he wrote. "In doing so, enactment of the [individual mandate] exceeds the Commerce Clause powers vested in Congress under Article I [of the Constitution.]
.
.
.
It is one of 25 legal challenges to the federal law wending their way through the federal courts across the country. In two other lawsuits, judges sitting in Michigan and Lynchburg, Va., have found that the same provision of the law passed legal muster. A third judge in Florida is also weighing constitutionality of the individual mandate in a suit jointly filed by 20 states.

washington post

[stetts]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Dear Mr Kuo,
Ok, may I make you aware of at least one privately run fire department? My county is mostly rural. The south end has a couple of cities, so has a public fire department to serve them. Here on the north end, nothing. So....we have our own volunteer department with two trucks (one a 6x6 tanker, the other a pumper. One call gets them notified and the good citizens drop their jobs and arrive in the best manner conditions allow.
Income is from fund raising (some of the best barbequed brisket anywhere) and donations. It works for us.
That said, I've also installed an engine driven pump that feeds water to a 3000 gallon surge tank from our ranch pond. I'll soon be adding a 5 HP electric pump with 2" line that'll feed a standpipe, and then a hose that will reach our main buildings here. Yes, that's privately funded, too.

Oh, I do believe the supreme court will allow Obamacare in its entirety, unfortunately. Any court that allows taking anyone's private property through brute-force condemnation and then giving it to another private entity merely on the possibility it will create more tax revenue is a court that has lost its way. And that's the state of affairs today. The solution is to delete Obamacare entirely and replace with a more sane program.

Take care. Stetts

[dbarberic]

Re: Obamacare facing legal challenges, one provision possibly unconstitutional

Moronic. That's like saying you can't force people to pay for school, fire protection, police, etc.

Actually, you technically do not pay for school, fire, and police if you are a renter and do not pay property taxes. I guess one could argue that property taxes are embedded in the rent price; but technically the property owner pays the taxes, not the renter and would be responsible for paying the taxes even if he did not have renter occupants in the building.