Bombs going off in Stockholm

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

But I think we can safely say Islam is a more threatening and dangerous than christianity or budhism. I much rather live in a catholic and budhist country than an Islamic country, I would imagine so would you??
I mean at christians are not hanging gays and stoning women, maybe they did 500 years ago, but not anymore.

Really? So just how many gays are hanged in Saudi Arabia, and how many women stoned, in a given year? In Islam in general?

And how many gays are beaten up in the US? Women raped? Abortion clinics bombed/sniped at?

Maybe you should examine FBI hate crime statistics to put things into context:

http://www.civilrights.org/publicati...ppendix-b.html

I also wonder if you've actually visited any Muslim countries - your rhetoric betrays a notable lack of first hand knowledge.

By demonizing an entire religion, you do nothing but provide the impetus for more "terrorists" to emerge from otherwise perfectly peaceful Muslim nations like Malaysia, Indonesia, Morocco, Tunisia, Turkey, etc etc.

Even within the so called 'activist' Muslim nations - the terrorist activities in question rarely if ever involved individuals from Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

You do know that almost all the 9/11 attackers were Saudi? Why aren't we 'Warring on Terror' there?

You cant discount the countless attacks by muslims throughout the world aimed at different religions and countries. I mean what more evidence do you need??

Discount? There are extremists everywhere and of all types. Or do you forget McVeigh? the IRA? the Basques? the Munich Olympics? Abortion clinic bombers/snipers?

Islam is bad = all muslims bad, not true and I would definitely say most people do not believe this.

So what exactly do most people believe?

2. Islam is a threat = we must bomb all muslim countries and continue to wage war in the middle east. Also not the case, our foreign excursions only aggravate the problem. Plus they have other interest at heart.

Really? So the Times Square bomber - how do you reconcile that?

He came straight out and said that he did it because he was angry over indiscriminate US drone bombing in Pakistan.

A very public example of creating a terrorist where none stood before.

3. Islam is worse than any other major religion including christianity = the person must be christian and certainly doesn't know about the violent history of christianity! not true...

Which part is not true? Because you yourself just said Islam is worse than Christianity and Buddhism.

All religions have their zealot phase, Buddhism included. Read up on the Tibetan horde sometime.

4. Islam is bad = racist, this one is laughable considering followers of Islam are of all races and Islam is just a belief, one based on idiotic and laughable premises like all religions.

Don't know where that came from. No one on this thread talked about racism.

I'm sorry but it seems to me that he said "Christ", which means New Testament, and you reply with a bunch of quotes of the Old Testament. You are a very weird one.

And you are ignorant. Jesus' sayings by definition are New Testament. And Mark was a disciple of Jesus.

Try again.

[flintlock]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

The difference is that atrocities committed in the name of Christ had nothing to do with his teachings. OTOH, the prophet Muhammad teaches his followers that it is not only acceptable, but laudable, to lie, cheat, steal, rape, pillage, enslave, and generally oppress infidels, whether they be "People of the Book" or not.

Of course the pope back in the 13th century would claim the torture WAS in the name of God. And that is all I'm going to say on this touchy subject of religion.

[snowman111]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

I'm sorry but it seems to me that he said "Christ", which means New Testament, and you reply with a bunch of quotes of the Old Testament. You are a very weird one.

To be fair the last 2 were from the New Testament.

[Anon21456]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

To be fair the last 2 were from the New Testament.

Right, but the first one is a quote from the Old Testament (Moses) and Jesus was rambling about some other things.
The second one would only be valid in the Kingdom of God, after Jesus was returned to us by God as the rightful King, which is only a distinct hypothesis that has no reason to be enforced under other circumstances.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

And yet we are now heading back towards Christianity as part of US government. Witness compassionate conservatism and the rise of the Christian Right as a political power.



I'm not sure what you are trying to argue here. Being rich is right? Being more technologically advanced confers being right?

What has happened in Canada since its founding as a nation?

What about Africa? They're neither technologically advanced nor are they terrorists.

Please clarify what you are attempting to say.



IMO, you should study the Koran before you make such statements.

Because the Bible also has its equivalent.

In any large document, justification can be found to do anything.

The radical Muslims focus on the attacking the infidel, but the Koran also speaks about 'People of the Book' - those of different religions which are based on written texts are to be treated differently that true pagans/infidels: (from wiki)

• And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. ^{[Qur'an 29:46]}

• Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)

• And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'

• Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . ^{[Qur'an 2:62]}

• Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. ^{[Qur'an 3:64]}

Jews and Christians are explicitly People of the Book.

Why should an athiest or an agnostic, or I (someone who rejects all religion), have to ask for tolerance? I should go to an Islamic country and have to ask for tolerance?

No, I do NOT think you understand what living in a civilized and democratic country in the Western World is all about.

I should be happy that some Iman in NYC near Ground-Zero plans to build an Islamic cultural centre but have it open to all faiths?..... No, I do NOT think he gets it, either. The monsterous crime of September 11th was totally about religion.

To the religious-right in America, I say again,"Take the God-crap off of the coins and the currency."

Happy Solstice, the shortest day in the Northern Hemisphere of Earth and the longest day in the Southern Hemisphere of Earth..... December 21st is the Solstice.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

The next stunt that religion is going to set-off in this world will be Armagedon: "The End-Time".

Watch the lunatics in the Middle East set-off an atomic war, and then they would proclaim that they were following their Book. Thus, it was written that "In the End-Time.....". And they will make it happen! ( They have a circular logic, always. )

Stalin would have had the whole lot of these idiots in lunatic-asylums.

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

I should go to an Islamic country and have to ask for tolerance?

When the Protestants and the Catholics were beating each other's heads in, and burning witches, and what not, the Muslims in Spain, North Africa, and the civilized parts of the Middle East (Egypt, Lebanon, etc) were practicing freedom of religion.

The situation now is reversed, but it is quite odd to say that "its different this time".

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Really? So just how many gays are hanged in Saudi Arabia, and how many women stoned, in a given year? In Islam in general?

And how many gays are beaten up in the US? Women raped? Abortion clinics bombed/sniped at?

Maybe you should examine FBI hate crime statistics to put things into context:

http://www.civilrights.org/publicati...ppendix-b.html

Well, the only states where homosexuality is punishble by death are muslim states, here are some of the countries where it is illegal (which includes every islamic state btw)

Africa
Algeria, Angola, Botswana, Burundi, Cameroon, Comoros, Egypt, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Kenya, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Malawi, Mauritania (death penalty), Mauritius, Morocco, Mozambique, Namibia, Nigeria (death penalty in some states), São Tomé and Principe, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan (death penalty), Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Tunisia, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe
Asia
Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Brunei, Burma, Iran (death penalty), Kuwait, Lebanon, Malaysia, Maldives, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia (death penalty), Singapore, Sri Lanka, Syria, Turkmenistan, United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Yemen (death penalty), as well as the Gaza Strip in the Palestinian Authority
Europe:Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (internationally unrecognised)
Latin America and the Caribbean:
Antigua and Barbuda, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Grenada, Guyana, Jamaica, St Kitts & Nevis, St Lucia, St Vincent & the Grenadines, Trinidad and Tobago
North America
None
Oceania
Kiribati, Nauru, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Samoa, Solomon Islands, Tonga, Tuvalu, as well as the New Zealand associate of Cook Islands

http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/...hobia_2010.pdf

And I specifically states, state sponsored actions(such as making homosexuality illegal). And you cant be serious in thinking more hate crime goes on here than in those countries right?
I mean seriously, you think gays are worst off in the US and in Islamic countries and muslim majority countries? Although technically i guess forced marriages aren't rape, so you might right...

I also wonder if you've actually visited any Muslim countries - your rhetoric betrays a notable lack of first hand knowledge.

By demonizing an entire religion, you do nothing but provide the impetus for more "terrorists" to emerge from otherwise perfectly peaceful Muslim nations like Malaysia, Indonesia, Morocco, Tunisia, Turkey, etc etc.

I would not put indonesia on the list of perfectly peaceful muslim nations, especially considering the amount of large scale terrorist attacks that have happened in the country during the last 10 years...
And homosexuality is illegal in all those countries you mentioned except Turkey, which is on of the most secular countries if not the most with a large muslim population, so... as for homosexuality in Turkey: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...-82239372.html

Even within the so called 'activist' Muslim nations - the terrorist activities in question rarely if ever involved individuals from Iran, Iraq, and Afghanistan.

Im not arguing this, we are in Iraq for oil and in Afghanistan we needed to throw a bone to the Military Industrial Complex... Btw, what do you think of the barbaric rule of the Taliban, or do you also think more hate crimes where comitted in the US and in Taliban Afghanistan?

You do know that almost all the 9/11 attackers were Saudi? Why aren't we 'Warring on Terror' there?

Are you assuming I am in favor of the "war on terror", it seems you are making that assumption. The saudi dictators are "our" dictators, that is why the government will continue to support them, that and we need their oil.

Discount? There are extremists everywhere and of all types. Or do you forget McVeigh? the IRA? the Basques? the Munich Olympics? Abortion clinic bombers/snipers?

1 Mcveight who btw, was not attacking in the name of god... Unless I missed something the Basques have kept their attacks in Spain, I dont see them bombing Spanish supporting governments. Same with the IRA, the munich olympics were just part of a ongoing conflic were religion plays a major role in it (btw, you might want to check out the presecutions christians are going through in Palestine)..

So what exactly do most people believe?

I should of rephrase that, I was speaking more in terms of generalizations made when someone says islam is bad. However, I really doubt most people in who see islam as a threat think all muslims are bad.

Really? So the Times Square bomber - how do you reconcile that?
He came straight out and said that he did it because he was angry over indiscriminate US drone bombing in Pakistan. A very public example of creating a terrorist where none stood before.

Like I said our foreign excursions only aggravate the problem. Btw, why didn't any latin americans attempt to blow themselves up when the US was supporting dictators, drug lords and other murderous groups in Latin america? you see the difference in reaction?
Hell the USA routinely burn field upon fields of cocaine throughout Colombia, in the process creating a hell of collateral damage affecting many poor colombian farmers. Why haven't they blown up the US embassy?

Which part is not true? Because you yourself just said Islam is worse than Christianity and Buddhism.

I am not religious, yet I think Islam is worse than Christianity and Buddhism.

All religions have their zealot phase, Buddhism included. Read up on the Tibetan horde sometime.

The Islamic zealot phase seems to be lasting quite a long time, seeing as how since Mohammed invented the religion the conquest adventures began. The islamic zealot phase is affecting quite a lot of people as well, and it's the phase we are living through so I think there might be some justification in being more afraid of an Islamic Terror attacks than a christian terror attack...

Do you really not think that Islam currently, poses a greater threat than christianity and other religions?

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Well, the only states where homosexuality is punishble by death are muslim states, here are some of the countries where it is illegal (which includes every islamic state btw)

...

http://old.ilga.org/Statehomophobia/...hobia_2010.pdf

And I specifically states, state sponsored actions(such as making homosexuality illegal). And you cant be serious in thinking more hate crime goes on here than in those countries right?
I mean seriously, you think gays are worst off in the US and in Islamic countries and muslim majority countries? Although technically i guess forced marriages aren't rape, so you might right...

There are all sorts of ridiculous laws - and they're not restricted to the Muslim states.

Many states in the United States still have laws against sodomy. What is that but a law against homosexuality?

What about blue laws: the regulation of alcohol access.

Every so called abuse you point out in Muslim sharia law has its equivalent in a US law.

The difference is wealth. In the 'good old days' of the US, the death penalty was universal.

Only today do we have the wealth and luxury of keeping 2% of our population in prisons.

I would not put indonesia on the list of perfectly peaceful muslim nations, especially considering the amount of large scale terrorist attacks that have happened in the country during the last 10 years...
And homosexuality is illegal in all those countries you mentioned except Turkey, which is on of the most secular countries if not the most with a large muslim population, so... as for homosexuality in Turkey: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/...-82239372.html

Homosexuality is illegal in many facets in US society. While I am not in favor (or disfavor) of homosexual marriage, nonetheless it is not a union recognized in the vast majority of US legal jurisdictions.

So what you refer to is really a difference in scale of discrimination.

As for Indonesia - given that it is significantly Muslim, the bombings are not religion oriented so much as secessionist oriented. Which I've already pointed out - Islam is but a tool used toward other ends in many so called 'terrorist' examples.

1 Mcveight who btw, was not attacking in the name of god... Unless I missed something the Basques have kept their attacks in Spain, I dont see them bombing Spanish supporting governments. Same with the IRA, the munich olympics were just part of a ongoing conflic were religion plays a major role in it (btw, you might want to check out the presecutions christians are going through in Palestine)..

It depends on what you call god.

His attack was against the federal government in the name of radical libertarianism. While radical libertarianism isn't a recognized religion per se - I think it is safe to say that his views of it aren't either representative of libertarianism in general nor were his actions unusual in a religious fanatic.

And as for persecution in Palestine - whatever that is - I guess it is all relative compared to the persecution being experienced by the Palestinians. A kicked dog bites someone else.

I should of rephrase that, I was speaking more in terms of generalizations made when someone says islam is bad. However, I really doubt most people in who see islam as a threat think all muslims are bad.

I fail to see how you prevent people from demonizing Muslims when you demonize their religion.

Like I said our foreign excursions only aggravate the problem. Btw, why didn't any latin americans attempt to blow themselves up when the US was supporting dictators, drug lords and other murderous groups in Latin america? you see the difference in reaction?
Hell the USA routinely burn field upon fields of cocaine throughout Colombia, in the process creating a hell of collateral damage affecting many poor colombian farmers. Why haven't they blown up the US embassy?

Well, I think there are a few other factors at play. After all, how many times has the US embassy in Iraq been blown up? Afghanistan? I don't think there is any debate that there is desire in both places...

In Colombia it is also unknown to me just how the farmers view the ongoing eradication campaigns. After all, for all we know the cartels treat it as a cost of business and subsidize the farmers to grow the coca.

Since the spraying generally doesn't involve Predators, 2000lb missiles, and weddings, I think the attempt to link Colombian coca eradication to Afghans armed with IEDs is problematic.

I am not religious, yet I think Islam is worse than Christianity and Buddhism

Interesting that someone who isn't conversant with any of the 3 religions is yet making judgements of all 3.

The Islamic zealot phase seems to be lasting quite a long time, seeing as how since Mohammed invented the religion the conquest adventures began. The islamic zealot phase is affecting quite a lot of people as well, and it's the phase we are living through so I think there might be some justification in being more afraid of an Islamic Terror attacks than a christian terror attack...

Perhaps their much longer period of poverty has something to do with it.

I'd also note that prior to Israel's existence, there were no terror attacks.

Maybe there's a correlation there?

Do you really not think that Islam currently, poses a greater threat than christianity and other religions?

This is a ridiculous statement - because it attempts to place blame based on a completely artificial grouping.

An example:

Do you really not think that libertarianism poses a much greater threat than Islam?

After all, McVeigh blew up a building in the name of freedom.

[Sharky]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

...

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

There are all sorts of ridiculous laws - and they're not restricted to the Muslim states.

Many states in the United States still have laws against sodomy. What is that but a law against homosexuality?

What about blue laws: the regulation of alcohol access.

I would say laws that put homosexuals and adulterers in jail and/or sentence them to the death penalty are not just ridiculous but outright insane and immoral. Maybe I forgot but I have not seen a homosexual prosecuted and hanged in the US. It is utterly ridiculous that you even make such comparisons.

Every so called abuse you point out in Muslim sharia law has its equivalent in a US law.

I would like to know the equivalent of death by hanging because of sexual orientation and amputation because of robbery in the US.

Homosexuality is illegal in many facets in US society. While I am not in favor (or disfavor) of homosexual marriage, nonetheless it is not a union recognized in the vast majority of US legal jurisdictions.

So what you refer to is really a difference in scale of discrimination.

Hmm, it seems maybe you just agree with islamic law in regards to homosexuals, you couldn't certainly compare it to homosexual marriage not being allowed.

As for Indonesia - given that it is significantly Muslim, the bombings are not religion oriented so much as secessionist oriented. Which I've already pointed out - Islam is but a tool used toward other ends in many so called 'terrorist' examples.

It is used more than any other reason, that should raise an eyebrow or two

And as for persecution in Palestine - whatever that is - I guess it is all relative compared to the persecution being experienced by the Palestinians. A kicked dog bites someone else.

Good to see you can so easily dismiss the murder of non-muslim palestinians by muslim-palestinians as just a natural reaction...

Interesting that someone who isn't conversant with any of the 3 religions is yet making judgements of all 3.

What more do I need to judge religions that believe in unprovable existences and events that defied the laws of nature? and that preach either nonsense, hate or both?

Perhaps their much longer period of poverty has something to do with it.

I'd also note that prior to Israel's existence, there were no terror attacks.

Maybe there's a correlation there?

Why don't we see the same in Latin america, poor asian countries and non-muslim african countries?

So Israel's existence justifies countless acts of violence against innocent people?

This is a ridiculous statement - because it attempts to place blame based on a completely artificial grouping.

An example:

Do you really not think that libertarianism poses a much greater threat than Islam?

After all, McVeigh blew up a building in the name of freedom.

Mcveigh was never described as a libertarian, in fact I would bet he was very much opposed to many of the core set of beliefs of libertarianism, for one he was a racist.

But for the sake of argument lets assume he was, that still makes only one libertarian terrorist compared to how many muslim terrorist?

Your nonsensical comparisons and ridiculous responses reek of intellectual dishonesty or worse, you actually support some form of sharia law. How you can even compare how sharia law is carried out in Islamic countries to alcohol and homosexual marriage laws in the US is pathetic.

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

I would say laws that put homosexuals and adulterers in jail and/or sentence them to the death penalty are not just ridiculous but outright insane and immoral. Maybe I forgot but I have not seen a homosexual prosecuted and hanged in the US. It is utterly ridiculous that you even make such comparisons.

Apparently you aren't reading what is typed - I already noted that there are still plenty of laws on the books in the US where acts associated with homosexuality and/or immoral sex are punished by jail.

These laws still exist in various forms with a specific federal override that only came in 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law#United_States

Highly amusing that the US and Iran were both nations with anti-sodomy laws until 2003.

I would like to know the equivalent of death by hanging because of sexual orientation and amputation because of robbery in the US.

These laws certainly aren't very enlightened, but then again these societies are poor.

In a similar economic situation, the US and UK acted no differently. Examine the use of obsolescent warships as prisons along with the use of criminal slave labor and deportation in the late 1700s/early 1800s:

http://www.earlyamericancrime.com/co...ing-after-1718

Hmm, it seems maybe you just agree with islamic law in regards to homosexuals, you couldn't certainly compare it to homosexual marriage not being allowed.

I guess it depends on who to talk to.

Discrimination is discrimination - the difference is only a matter of degree. Those who argue for homosexual marriage say that their inability to do so is as barbaric as any other form of discrimination - yet the major sects of the Christian religion explicitly enshrine this discrimination.

Equally so there are many of those politically who espouse this view - whether cynically or not.

It is used more than any other reason, that should raise an eyebrow or two

By this definition, the 'War on Terror' should be equally damned.

Because it is absolutely safe to say that many times more people are killed in the name of preventing terrorism than have been killed by terrorism.

Good to see you can so easily dismiss the murder of non-muslim palestinians by muslim-palestinians as just a natural reaction...

I dismiss nothing. I merely point out that the inhabitants of the religiously heterodox city of Jerusalem have more or less coexisted successfully. The exceptions are: the Christian Crusaders invading, and then the Jewish Zionists invading.

Once the balance is upset - it is unsurprising that violence spills over.

I could as equally say that you seem to approve the dispossession of the Palestinians.

What more do I need to judge religions that believe in unprovable existences and events that defied the laws of nature? and that preach either nonsense, hate or both?

Yep, you apparently believe you can judge without actually knowing anything about what you are judging.

Whatever.

Why don't we see the same in Latin america, poor asian countries and non-muslim african countries?

So Israel's existence justifies countless acts of violence against innocent people?

In many of the nations in Latin America there is tremendous discrimination including violence against minorities, as well as a gigantic economic divide including massive levels of crime in many of the larger cities. Guatemala, Brazil, Colombia all come quickly to mind.

In Asia, the wealthier and better organized nations are fairly safe, but for every Japan or North Korea, there is a Burma, a Laos, a (until recently) Sri Lanka. Even now there is still a Maoist insurgency in that homeland of Buddhist monasteries: Nepal.

As for Africa - apparently you think the Rwanda massacres were due to Muslims. No, actually it was a tribal thing.

What about the exploits of Mugabe? Also nothing to do with Islam.

South Africa and its apartheid in the past and its massive crime today? No, still no Islam.

Sorry but your case is pretty weak.

Mcveigh was never described as a libertarian, in fact I would bet he was very much opposed to many of the core set of beliefs of libertarianism, for one he was a racist.

Hmm, well, so apparently libertarianism cannot coexist with racism? Awful big assumption there.

But McVeigh was definitely a libertarian at least in his own eyes.

Or how else do you reconcile his manifesto:

http://truthinourtime.wordpress.com/...ghs-manifesto/

I explain herein why I bombed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. I explain this not for publicity, nor seeking to win an argument of right or wrong. I explain so that the record is clear as to my thinking and motivations in bombing a government installation.


I chose to bomb a federal building because such an action served more purposes than other options. Foremost, the bombing was a retaliatory strike; a counter attack, for the cumulative raids (and subsequent violence and damage) that federal agents had participated in over the preceding years (including, but not limited to, Waco.) From the formation of such units as the FBI’s “Hostage Rescue” and other assault teams amongst federal agencies during the ’80′s; culminating in the Waco incident, federal actions grew increasingly militaristic and violent, to the point where at Waco, our government – like the Chinese – was deploying tanks against its own citizens.
Knowledge of these multiple and ever-more aggressive raids across the country constituted an identifiable pattern of conduct within and by the federal government and amongst its various agencies. (see enclosed) For all intents and purposes, federal agents had become “soldiers” (using military training, tactics, techniques, equipment, language, dress, organization, and mindset) and they were escalating their behavior. Therefore, this bombing was also meant as a pre-emptive (or pro-active) strike against these forces and their command and control centers within the federal building. When an aggressor force continually launches attacks from a particular base of operation, it is sound military strategy to take the fight to the enemy.


Additionally, borrowing a page from U.S. foreign policy, I decided to send a message to a government that was becoming increasingly hostile, by bombing a government building and the government employees within that building who represent that government. Bombing the Murrah Federal Building was morally and strategically equivalent to the U.S. hitting a government building in Serbia, Iraq, or other nations. (see enclosed) Based on observations of the policies of my own government, I viewed this action as an acceptable option. From this perspective, what occurred in Oklahoma City was no different than what Americans rain on the heads of others all the time, and subsequently, my mindset was and is one of clinical detachment. (The bombing of the Murrah building was not personal , no more than when Air Force, Army, Navy, or Marine personnel bomb or launch cruise missiles against government installations and their personnel.)


I hope that this clarification amply addresses your question.


Sincerely,


Timothy J. McVeigh

No mention of races here. Only the oppressive federal government as exemplified by Ruby Ridge and by Waco.

Your nonsensical comparisons and ridiculous responses reek of intellectual dishonesty or worse, you actually support some form of sharia law. How you can even compare how sharia law is carried out in Islamic countries to alcohol and homosexual marriage laws in the US is pathetic.

Sorry, I don't support your tidal hate any more than I support some Arab using Islam to preach tidal hate.

While many aspects of Shari'a law are very much outdated and barbaric - there are equally laws in the US which other nations consider exceedingly outdated and barbaric.

You seek to demonize via the classic classification of the opponent as subhuman or otherwise unworthy of being considered a person.

This is mental laziness or plain stupidity which is easily manipulated. Just look at the example of Hitler and his demonization of the Jews.

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Apparently you aren't reading what is typed - I already noted that there are still plenty of laws on the books in the US where acts associated with homosexuality and/or immoral sex are punished by jail.

These laws still exist in various forms with a specific federal override that only came in 2003:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law#United_States

Highly amusing that the US and Iran were both nations with anti-sodomy laws until 2003.

, except one country was still applying them and the other not. Many countries have laws against homosexuals yet only islamic countries currently execute and imprison homosexuals. Again, that you even try to make the comparison is pathetic, I think you are trying more to convince yourself... its okay, you can say a religion is bad, you wont be sent to hell for it!

These laws certainly aren't very enlightened, but then again these societies are poor.

There are many socities that are poor yet few resort to such barbaric punishments such as hangings.

I guess it depends on who to talk to.

Discrimination is discrimination - the difference is only a matter of degree. Those who argue for homosexual marriage say that their inability to do so is as barbaric as any other form of discrimination - yet the major sects of the Christian religion explicitly enshrine this discrimination.

Equally so there are many of those politically who espouse this view - whether cynically or not.

haha, what can I say? , I think gay americans feel a tad bit better in the discrimination they get compared to homosexuals in islamic countries.

I dismiss nothing. I merely point out that the inhabitants of the religiously heterodox city of Jerusalem have more or less coexisted successfully. The exceptions are: the Christian Crusaders invading, and then the Jewish Zionists invading.

crusader invasions where a response to muslim invasions. I dont know how all this is relevant hunderds of years later, when muslims are killing non-muslims in general.

Yep, you apparently believe you can judge without actually knowing anything about what you are judging.

Whatever.

I dont know, the 400+ terrorist attacks commited by muslims over the last 15 years, the countless death threats against, authors, cartoonist etc. Make me think their might be something unsettling with Islam. The fact that you find all sorts of ways to excuse these acts of terrorism is appalling. You are either a coward for not even wanting to judge such actions or you agree with them. Im starting to think it is the latter.

In many of the nations in Latin America there is tremendous discrimination including violence against minorities, as well as a gigantic economic divide including massive levels of crime in many of the larger cities. Guatemala, Brazil, Colombia all come quickly to mind.

In Asia, the wealthier and better organized nations are fairly safe, but for every Japan or North Korea, there is a Burma, a Laos, a (until recently) Sri Lanka. Even now there is still a Maoist insurgency in that homeland of Buddhist monasteries: Nepal.

As for Africa - apparently you think the Rwanda massacres were due to Muslims. No, actually it was a tribal thing.

What about the exploits of Mugabe? Also nothing to do with Islam.

South Africa and its apartheid in the past and its massive crime today? No, still no Islam.

So atheist and civil wars kill people too, I dont know what this has to do with excusing the countless terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam.

Sorry, I don't support your tidal hate any more than I support some Arab using Islam to preach tidal hate.

While many aspects of Shari'a law are very much outdated and barbaric - there are equally laws in the US which other nations consider exceedingly outdated and barbaric.

You seek to demonize via the classic classification of the opponent as subhuman or otherwise unworthy of being considered a person.

Recognizing that many acts of terror have been committed in the name of a religion is not tidal hate.

Again with your pathetic comparisons of Sharia law to US laws, it's nothing but intellectual dishonesty on your part. That you compare a society that puts people to death for adultery, sexual orientation etc. in the name of Islam to mostly free socities where the state does not hunt down homosexuals, adulterers etc. is frankly appalling and insane.

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

, except one country was still applying them and the other not. Many countries have laws against homosexuals yet only islamic countries currently execute and imprison homosexuals. Again, that you even try to make the comparison is pathetic, I think you are trying more to convince yourself... its okay, you can say a religion is bad, you wont be sent to hell for it!

Except you still refuse to acknowledge that rich nations are much more tolerant of 'non-standard' lifestyles than poor ones.

It is easy to say that we're better, but there are far more factors than religion.

There are many socities that are poor yet few resort to such barbaric punishments such as hangings.

Really? So how would you categorize Singapore - with its hangings for drug offences, canings for vandalism, etc etc? Barbaric or not?

In fact Singapore supposedly has the highest rate of executions - including hangings - of any nation in the world...though I'd take anything Wikipedia says with a grain of salt.

crusader invasions where a response to muslim invasions. I dont know how all this is relevant hunderds of years later, when muslims are killing non-muslims in general.

Uh, I think you need to study history some more. The Crusades weren't carried out by Spaniards enraged over the Muslim occupation (actually Moorish/North African) of their homeland - it was carried out by primarily Northern Europeans who by and large were never in the least bit threatened by Islam in any way, shape, or form.

Even the naval battles of Lepanto etc weren't about Muslim invasions, there were about control over the sea trade routes to Asia.

At least try to get some historical fact right.

I dont know, the 400+ terrorist attacks commited by muslims over the last 15 years, the countless death threats against, authors, cartoonist etc. Make me think their might be something unsettling with Islam. The fact that you find all sorts of ways to excuse these acts of terrorism is appalling. You are either a coward for not even wanting to judge such actions or you agree with them. Im starting to think it is the latter.

And how many Israeli/American bombs have struck villages? And how many Muslims have been killed as non-combatants in the 'War on Terror' vs. Westerners killed by terrorism.

The fact that you buy into the black or white story just shows your own naivete.

So atheist and civil wars kill people too, I dont know what this has to do with excusing the countless terrorist acts committed in the name of Islam.

You wanted examples of unrest due to causes other than Islam - I provided them. Clearly you are so focused on the evil Muslim ones that nothing else matters...even when it does.

Recognizing that many acts of terror have been committed in the name of a religion is not tidal hate.

Recognizing that your demonization of Islam as a religion of terrorists is exactly tidal hate - you've lumped the vast majority of Muslims who are non violent, law abiding, peaceful people with a minority of extremists.

Again with your pathetic comparisons of Sharia law to US laws, it's nothing but intellectual dishonesty on your part. That you compare a society that puts people to death for adultery, sexual orientation etc. in the name of Islam to mostly free socities where the state does not hunt down homosexuals, adulterers etc. is frankly appalling and insane.

You still can't get your head around the fact that in reality, the nations which most practice these so called barbaric laws are the ones which are American allies: Saudi Arabia.

And that the greatest act of terror successfully achieved was via citizens of that above named nation. Not Palestinians. Not Syrians. Not Afghans. Not Iranians. Not Iraqis.

Amusing how your moral superiority and certitude manifests in reality.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there are factors beyond the Ugg Bash viewpoint you seem to hold.

[oddlots]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Religious intolerance exists in both Christian and Islamic communities. It seems to me it's a judgement call which communities are taken as representative and that is the main problem: it's open to both honest disagreement as well as tendentious argumentation.

Here's an example: I was really alarmed by this backgrounder on Uganda's new laws against homosexuality and their origin in missionary work by American churches:

"The Fellowship is the Ugandan Parliament’s branch of an American evangelical movement of the same name, also called the Family. The Family differs from most fundamentalist groups in its preference for those whom it calls “key men,” political and business elites, over the multitude. The bill’s author, MP Bahati, the de facto leader of the Ugandan branch, has become a national star for his crusade against gays. Winston Churchill called Uganda “the pearl of Africa”; the Family agrees. In the past ten years, it has poured millions into “leadership development” there, more than it has invested in any other foreign country, and billions in U.S. foreign aid have flowed into Ugandan coffers since a Family leader turned on the tap twenty-four years ago for President Yoweri Museveni, a dictator hailed by the West for his democratic rhetoric and by Christian conservatives for the evangelical zeal of his regime.
Every year, right before Uganda’s Independence Day, the government holds a National Prayer Breakfast modeled on the Family’s event in Washington. Americans, among them Republican Senator Jim Inhofe of Oklahoma, former attorney general John Ashcroft—both longtime Family men and outspoken antigay activists—and Pastor Rick Warren, are a frequent attraction at the Ugandan Fellowship’s weekly meetings. “He said homosexuality is a sin and that we should fight it,” Bahati recalled of Warren’s visits.
Inhofe and Warren, like most American fundamentalists, came out in muted opposition to Uganda’s gay death penalty, but they didn’t dispute the motive behind it: the eradication of homosexuality. They may disagree on the means, favoring a “cure” rather than killing, but not the ends. For years, American fundamentalists have looked on Uganda as a laboratory for theo- cracy, though most prefer such terms as “government led by God.” They sent not just money and missionaries but ideas, and if the money disappeared and the missionaries came and went, the ideas took hold. Ugandan evangelicals sing American songs and listen to sermons about American problems, often from American preachers. Ugandan politicians attend prayer breakfasts in America and cut deals with evangelical American businessmen. American evangelicals, in turn, hold up Ugandan congregations as role models for their own, and point to Ugandan AIDS policy—from which American evangelicals nearly stripped condom distribution altogether—as proof that public-health problems can be solved by moral remedies. It is a classic fundamentalist maneuver: move a fight you can’t win in the center to the margins, then broadcast the results back home."

http://www.itulip.com/forums/archive...p/t-17195.html

What worries me about this is not that I think that it's representative of Christianity or of American Christianity - how could you make this judgement? - but that it demonstrates effective influence by an organised group of religious zealots. In other words, they are in the ascendancy in Uganda. Or, put another way, the trend has some steam behind it: by the time I've heard about it years and years of preaching and organisation has gone on. At least for the short to medium term, Uganda is trapped heading into this horrible dead end purely by the law of inertia if nothing else. It's like watching a train wreck.

It doesn't occur to me to rail against Christians here. Rather I would rail against the politesses that somehow protects these absurd, destructive claims because they are "religious belief."

My point is, I don't see any practical import to the distinction between Christian zealots and Islamic zealots. What, ultimately, is the value in making some essential claim against an essential Christian or Islamic idea when a) the vast majority of those practicing both faiths are likely equally reasonable, moderate people b) both religions throw up dangerous zealots. Does it matter whether at any given time whether one is more effective at producing maniacs than the other? They are both susceptible. That's the core problem.

Where is the payoff to this "identity politics"?