Bombs going off in Stockholm

[Starving Steve]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

C1ue:

What happens in Islam if you are not "a person of the Book" and instead, you might be a scientist, or an evolutionist, or a lover of pork-ribs, or an eccentric, an agnostic, maybe an athiest, a Vagan, a Buddist, a communist, a moron, a gambler, a worshipper of gold, a lesbian, a gay, a slow-learner, a divergent-thinker, a critical-thinker, a deep-thinker, a creative-thinker, a doubter, or maybe just one who hates authority of any kind?

At least in the Western World, the line has been drawn between religious-authority and the individual. That line is protected by the state, in most countries..... But in the Islamic World, where is the line drawn, especially in Iran?

If the line is drawn between religion and the state in Iran, who would dare question their local Iman? What would happen to them? Would anyone want to eat some BBQ pork-ribs in Iran? What would happen to you if you told your local Iman in Iran that Islamic scripture just might be wrong? What is going to happen to some Christians in Pakistan who have been charged with blasphemy against the Prophet?

[Ghent12]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

What's different besides the barrier of several centuries? Well, when Christians behave badly and persecute and kill others who don't share their views, they are acting against the teachings of their founder. When radical Muslims do it, they are following the teachings of their founder. An important distinction, imo.

I don't know the Qur'an enough to confirm or deny your statement, but I now know a blatantly political struggle when I see one. "Militant Islam" is not fighting "Us" because of some clash of religions. They are on the losing side of a violent political contest and are fighting in desperation the way all modern desperate groups fight. The most prolific and innovative suicide bombers, for example, were the Tamil Tigers and that was for a nationalist struggle. What we are dealing with in the various countries of the Middle East and Central Asia is a culture with deep roots in barbarism. Islam itself is just another religion and that can be used or exploited to any effect just as any other religion.

[Master Shake]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

In understanding the Koran, you need to distinguish between the Meccan and Medinan suras and understand the concept of abrogation. The Meccan suras were peaceful and ecumenical and written when Mohammad and his followers were in the minority. The Medinan suras were written later, when Mo had the upper hand, and were much more bilious, anatagonistic, and downright oppressive to non-believers, be they of The Book or not. Because the Medinan suras post-date the Meccan ones, they effectively nullify them.

Here's a good explanation.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles...e_of_islam.htm

[Master Shake]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Not to mention the fact that there have been Jewish communities existing in a sea of muslims for centuries, unmolested. Contrast the centuries of pogroms and really vile persecutions in the West and I think you have to re-visit the notion of Islam as a religion of war and conflict and Christianity as the abused bringer of peace. It just doesn't hold up at all.

Jews living under Muslim rule unmolested? I guess that depends on your definition of "unmolested." American blacks living in the south before the Civil Rights Era were similarly unmolested, as long as they knew their "place."

Some reading for you.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

As I recall, the UK and Spain both had very serious attacks.

Have all of the coalition members suffered terrorist attacks?

Not yet.

But when you piss off a lot of people - like a flood they search around for weak spots to gain revenge.

The US and western nation have meddled int he affairs of a countless numbers or countries(executing leaders, replacing them, arming militias, supporting dictators etc.) like for example in Latin America, yet I dont see any latin american's blowing themselves up.

When you look at the muslim world response to some cartoons (the bomber btw, attributed a Swedish mohamed cartoon scandal as a reason for what he did) its not hard to imagine they might actually be batshit insane.
I lived in Sweden for 3 years and from very unscientific anecdotal evidence and experience I can say there is a very strong hate for Swedish lifestyle and swedish whores(otherwise known as hot swedish women) coming from the muslim population in Sweden. You would think they would have much more appreciation for the country that took them in and in many cases supported them financially for extended periods of time, but they dont.

ON friday talking with a swedish friend, when discussing the issue of terrorism I said(like i had previously said) that there will be an attack in Sweden (regardless of justification, since not much is needed) next day the terrorist attack happen.

Recognizing that there is a terrorism problem with Islam doesn't mean all government actions "against" it must be supported or are right or even justified. But one cant be so naive as to think that every terrorist attack has the CIA behind it, I imagine the countless attacks throughout the world (IN the last 20 years I believe only Oceania has not seen a terrorist attack by Muslim group, and I am probably wrong on that) are enough evidence to think just maybe certain followers of Islam wish to convert the masses at all cost.

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

funny you should use that term.

I'd argue the vast majority of Afghans and Pakistanis could give a rat's patootie about America, or anything beyond the next village - at least until buzzing 15 foot drones started dropping 2000 pound missiles and killing women and children.

And for all your holier than thou ranting - the behavior of the radical Muslim is no different than the behavior of the Catholics during the Inquisition. Of both Catholic and Protestant in the Wars of the Reformation. The list goes on and on.

The difference is a function of both time and money - the regimes creating these large numbers of disaffected Muslim youths are for the most part supported by the US military against enemies both internal and external.

So which is the chicken and which is the egg?

So are you equating modern day muslims with medieval protestants and catholics? then you must admit they are a threat.

I get tired of the examples of christianity and its barbaric acts being brought up to somehow justify muslim barbaric acts. The reality is this:

1. Most followers of christianity (Protestant and catholic) today are largely secularized and have very much so adapted their beliefs. Islam has not, and a quick look at the barbaric laws of islamic countries should show you that.

2. Christians have abandonded forced conversions and killing non converts, some muslims (especially in Islamic states) have not.

3. Christianity has been mocked and more and more is treated as a made up tale (which I agree with). Yet no one even dares to challenge the notion that Islam is another dumb religion created to control people. To do so would get you labeled as racist, death threats and social condemnation. HOw did we get to the point where everything but Islam and muslims can be mocked? come on, you cant be that naive?

We might not be at an ideological war with Islam and its followers but increasingly, they are with us(western ideals). I think I read a poll not too long ago that a bit over 30% of mulsims in the UK would want Sharia law implemented in the UK, I dont know about you but I think that is not a good sign.

Btw, we deal with this not by invading the muslim world, we must fight this ideologically, calling out Islam for what it is, a dumb religion with a mentality stuck in the 10th century that has all but rejected advancements in reason achieved by most of the world in the last 200-300 years. When you have the president of FIFA saying gays should abstain from sexual acts during the Qatar 2022 world cup, you have a problem...

And yet we are now heading back towards Christianity as part of US government. Witness compassionate conservatism and the rise of the Christian Right as a political power.

Cant even compare the two, unless you think the current christian right would want their sharia law implemented in the US(and I a m sure some do) and would start executing gays and cheating wives...
The christian right has also been largely ridiculed and criticized I doubt the same could be done, say in Iran...

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

What happens in Islam if you are not "a person of the Book" and instead, you might be a scientist, or an evolutionist, or a lover of pork-ribs, or an eccentric, an agnostic, maybe an athiest, a Vagan, a Buddist, a communist, a moron, a gambler, a worshipper of gold, a lesbian, a gay, a slow-learner, a divergent-thinker, a critical-thinker, a deep-thinker, a creative-thinker, a doubter, or maybe just one who hates authority of any kind?

At least in the Western World, the line has been drawn between religious-authority and the individual. That line is protected by the state, in most countries..... But in the Islamic World, where is the line drawn, especially in Iran?

If the line is drawn between religion and the state in Iran, who would dare question their local Iman? What would happen to them? Would anyone want to eat some BBQ pork-ribs in Iran? What would happen to you if you told your local Iman in Iran that Islamic scripture just might be wrong? What is going to happen to some Christians in Pakistan who have been charged with blasphemy against the Prophet?

Iran exists today as a theological state significantly due to American actions. Many other Muslim nations have not turned theological - Iraq, Turkey, Egypt, and many others as clear counter-examples.

As for your examples - the truth is in Iran, unless you are political and/or enjoy flaunting your anti-Sharia behavior in public, it is rare indeed that anyone bothers.

It is actually the states like Saudi Arabia that have truly oppressive Sharia laws.

And if you think the US or Canada is so much different, I think you can find a group of bigots in either nation without trying too hard. Despite an oppressive media mind set, there are still regular examples of violent homophobia, racism, sexism, leftism, rightism, and any other -ism you can name.

It is just that the US and Canada are rich enough and sparsely populated enough that everyone can isolate/avoid all they desire.

Discrimination is a human condition - religion is merely one excuse among legion to engage in it.

Equally so dehumanization by demonization is a classic method for stirring up support for otherwise unpopular or unnecessary actions.

So are you equating modern day muslims with medieval protestants and catholics? then you must admit they are a threat.

Radical muslims are a minority of the total Muslim population of 1.5 billion.

I thus admit no such thing that Muslims in toto are a threat; were all 1.5 billion truly terrorists, there would be nothing whatsoever that would stop truly impressive levels of bloodshed.

This doesn't even account for the 1 to 3 million (or more) Muslims living in the United States already.

Secondly while absolutely there are many Muslims who seek to engage in terrorism or other violent acts - they do so primarily due to leaders with secular goals.

These goals can be redirection of internal dissent, aggregation of personal power, greed for money, or any of a myriad other reasons, but also to include the ongoing aggression by US 'anti-terrorism'.

While the Protestant Reformation started with the finest of goals - the reformation of a very clearly corrupt Catholic church, the movement was quickly subsumed by secular princes as an excuse to conquer, and by soldiers as an excuse to loot.

Said secular leaders raped, looted, and pillaged without regard for religion - but used religion incessantly as an excuse to rally their people and troops.

The point is quite simple: tidal hate

When you go forward and engage in an act which causes harm, it engenders hate. Enough engendered hate, and you get a harmful response to you, which in turn ratchets up the level and restarts the cycle.

The ongoing 'War on Terror' does nothing except ratchet up the cycle of tidal hate and enrich those prosecuting it.

[D-Mack]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Got a link to a credible source on that? I'd love to read it.

NATO's Secret Armies should contain something about p2 written by

DANIELE GANSER, PhD

Swiss Historian and Peace Researcher, Basel University

Research Interests:

• International History from 1945 to today
• Secret Warfare and Geostrategy
• Intelligence Services and Special Forces
• Peak Oil and Resource Wars
• Globalization and Human Rights

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ar...ies_gladio.pdf

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

Radical muslims are a minority of the total Muslim population of 1.5 billion.

I thus admit no such thing that Muslims in toto are a threat; were all 1.5 billion truly terrorists, there would be nothing whatsoever that would stop truly impressive levels of bloodshed.

This doesn't even account for the 1 to 3 million (or more) Muslims living in the United States already.

Secondly while absolutely there are many Muslims who seek to engage in terrorism or other violent acts - they do so primarily due to leaders with secular goals.

These goals can be redirection of internal dissent, aggregation of personal power, greed for money, or any of a myriad other reasons, but also to include the ongoing aggression by US 'anti-terrorism'.

While the Protestant Reformation started with the finest of goals - the reformation of a very clearly corrupt Catholic church, the movement was quickly subsumed by secular princes as an excuse to conquer, and by soldiers as an excuse to loot.

Said secular leaders raped, looted, and pillaged without regard for religion - but used religion incessantly as an excuse to rally their people and troops.

The point is quite simple: tidal hate

When you go forward and engage in an act which causes harm, it engenders hate. Enough engendered hate, and you get a harmful response to you, which in turn ratchets up the level and restarts the cycle.

The ongoing 'War on Terror' does nothing except ratchet up the cycle of tidal hate and enrich those prosecuting it.

Well, assuming just 1% are radical that is 15 million radicals willing to wage war in the name of islam, i would say there are more radicals than just that.

Also I would say quite a bit more than 10/20% would want to live under sharia law.

I think the greatest condemnation of Islam is the intolerance and horrific laws and state sponsored abuse that happen in Islamic countries and the Islamic world. Like I said, one would be naive to think there is not something seriously wrong with Islam when almost every terrorist act in the world in the last 20 years has been done by muslims in the name of Allah.

As for American foreign adventures, they do nothing but create more outrage and make it easier for terrorist to recruit. They also are not done for American interest, but for monetary and power reasons.

[flintlock]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

funny you should use that term.

I'd argue the vast majority of Afghans and Pakistanis could give a rat's patootie about America, or anything beyond the next village - at least until buzzing 15 foot drones started dropping 2000 pound missiles and killing women and children.

And for all your holier than thou ranting - the behavior of the radical Muslim is no different than the behavior of the Catholics during the Inquisition. Of both Catholic and Protestant in the Wars of the Reformation. The list goes on and on.

The difference is a function of both time and money - the regimes creating these large numbers of disaffected Muslim youths are for the most part supported by the US military against enemies both internal and external.

So which is the chicken and which is the egg?

I agree completely.

[flintlock]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

This is all just the same old stuff. Its about who is going to have the power in a certain region. If aligning with one particular religion or another allows these folks to control their minions, then so the better. It's a turf war. I say we stay off their turf and we'll have less problems. It's like staying out of your neighbor's business. Sure, he may be a vicious brute, but stop nosing around his place and he'll usually leave you alone so he can concentrate on beating his wife. If he still comes over and tries to mess with you, then you vaporize him. But at least then you can claim self defense.

No one's hands are clean in this mess. But human nature is to try and set things into a simple contest of good vs evil, when in reality we probably have a case of evil vs evil here. The fact is the WEST is based on an economic system where things must always go up up up. We're running out of crap to sell ourselves so we look to untapped markets to foist our gadgets and gizmos on. Some of this is simply about the West trying to force it's way into 2nd world markets in order to keep the money train running. There is huge potential there. Only some of those people don't want us there. It THREATENS their power. Religion is merely the excuse used by people on both sides to rationalize what really boils down to a quest for power and money. Not that some people are not sincere in this. Many are. They really believe some God does or does not want this or that people to exist there. But they are being manipulated.

Talking about how the writings of the Koran changed and the Catholic Inquisition, this really does show how "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Religions that start out with the best intentions end up twisted into some sort of sick entity when they feel they no longer have to answer to anyone. Another reason to keep religion out of the business of running nations.

[Master Shake]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

This is all just the same old stuff. Its about who is going to have the power in a certain region. If aligning with one particular religion or another allows these folks to control their minions, then so the better. It's a turf war. I say we stay off their turf and we'll have less problems. It's like staying out of your neighbor's business. Sure, he may be a vicious brute, but stop nosing around his place and he'll usually leave you alone so he can concentrate on beating his wife. If he still comes over and tries to mess with you, then you vaporize him. But at least then you can claim self defense.

No one's hands are clean in this mess. But human nature is to try and set things into a simple contest of good vs evil, when in reality we probably have a case of evil vs evil here. The fact is the WEST is based on an economic system where things must always go up up up. We're running out of crap to sell ourselves so we look to untapped markets to foist our gadgets and gizmos on. Some of this is simply about the West trying to force it's way into 2nd world markets in order to keep the money train running. There is huge potential there. Only some of those people don't want us there. It THREATENS their power. Religion is merely the excuse used by people on both sides to rationalize what really boils down to a quest for power and money. Not that some people are not sincere in this. Many are. They really believe some God does or does not want this or that people to exist there. But they are being manipulated.

Talking about how the writings of the Koran changed and the Catholic Inquisition, this really does show how "absolute power corrupts absolutely". Religions that start out with the best intentions end up twisted into some sort of sick entity when they feel they no longer have to answer to anyone. Another reason to keep religion out of the business of running nations.

The difference is that atrocities committed in the name of Christ had nothing to do with his teachings. OTOH, the prophet Muhammad teaches his followers that it is not only acceptable, but laudable, to lie, cheat, steal, rape, pillage, enslave, and generally oppress infidels, whether they be "People of the Book" or not.

[c1ue]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

The difference is that atrocities committed in the name of Christ had nothing to do with his teachings. OTOH, the prophet Muhammad teaches his followers that it is not only acceptable, but laudable, to lie, cheat, steal, rape, pillage, enslave, and generally oppress infidels, whether they be "People of the Book" or not.

You keep returning to this, yet the Bible is no different:

1) In Leviticus 25:44-46, the Lord tells the Israelites it’s OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens.

2) In Samuel 15:2-3, the Lord orders Saul to kill all the Amalekite men, women and infants.

3) In Exodus 15:3, the Bible tells us the Lord is a man of war.

4) In Numbers 31, the Lord tells Moses to kill all the Midianites, sparing only the virgins.

5) In Deuteronomy 13:6-16, the Lord instructs Israel to kill anyone who worships a different god or who worships the Lord differently.

6) In Mark 7:9, Jesus is critical of the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law.

7) In Luke 19:22-27, Jesus orders killed anyone who refuses to be ruled by him.

Context matters, as do the goals of those promoting the message.

To say the Koran or Islam is in any way worse (or better) than the Bible is to exactly play into the tidal hate game.

The full article from which the above quotes comes from is illuminating in its entirety:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

[tsetsefly]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

You keep returning to this, yet the Bible is no different:

Context matters, as do the goals of those promoting the message.

To say the Koran or Islam is in any way worse (or better) than the Bible is to exactly play into the tidal hate game.

The full article from which the above quotes comes from is illuminating in its entirety:

http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/1086.htm

Like I said, all religion is bull****. But I think we can safely say Islam is a more threatening and dangerous than christianity or budhism. I much rather live in a catholic and budhist country than an Islamic country, I would imagine so would you??
I mean at christians are not hanging gays and stoning women, maybe they did 500 years ago, but not anymore.

Also, I haven't seen a christian violent uproar when picture making fun of god or jesus come out?

It's disingenuous to say Islam is more crazy than Christianity, just like there are crazier division withing christianity, catholicism etc.

Look at the uproar the cartoons caused, the hunt for Salman Rushdie,btw, went for wikipedia spell check on his name and I found this little nugget of information regarding the religion of peace

As of mid 2010 Rushdie has not been physically harmed, but others connected with the book have suffered violent attacks. Hitoshi Igarashi, the Japanese language translator of the book, was stabbed to death on 11 July 1991; Ettore Capriolo, the Italian language translator, was seriously injured in a stabbing the same month; William Nygaard, the publisher in Norway, barely survived an attempted assassination in Oslo in October 1993, and Aziz Nesin, the Turkish languageSivas massacre on 2 July 1993 in Sivas, Turkey, which resulted in the deaths of 37 people.[7] translator, was the intended target in the events that led to the Individual purchasers of the book have not been harmed. At the same time, the only nation with a predominantly Muslim population where the novel remains legal still is Turkey.)

You cant discount the countless attacks by muslims throughout the world aimed at different religions and countries. I mean what more evidence do you need??

Here is the problem when debating this, the assumptions made when someone says "Islam is bad and it is definately worse than Christianity or any other major religion" make debating this almost impossible. The assumptions go something like this:

1. Islam is bad = all muslims bad, not true and I would definitely say most people do not believe this.

2. Islam is a threat = we must bomb all muslim countries and continue to wage war in the middle east. Also not the case, our foreign excursions only aggravate the problem. Plus they have other interest at heart.

3. Islam is worse than any other major religion including christianity = the person must be christian and certainly doesn't know about the violent history of christianity! not true...

4. Islam is bad = racist, this one is laughable considering followers of Islam are of all races and Islam is just a belief, one based on idiotic and laughable premises like all religions.

[Anon21456]

Re: Bombs going off in Stockholm

You keep returning to this, yet the Bible is no different:

I'm sorry but it seems to me that he said "Christ", which means New Testament, and you reply with a bunch of quotes of the Old Testament. You are a very weird one.