the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

[Sharky]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

This reminds me of a quote from Atlas Shrugged:

Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion – when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing – when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors – when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you – when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice – you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

From Francisco's 'Money' speech:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2158115/posts

[Munger]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

Is this the sort of job where screw-ups could cost lives, or at the very least cause serious damage? I.e., does managing construction projects entail ensuring things are done to spec or to code? If so, perhaps the certification -- which apparently involves deciphering, memorizing and regurgitating large amounts of text -- is a de facto IQ test to ensure a minimum level of competence. If so, it may well be in the employers' private interest to require this certification as a CYA (might even lower insurance premiums).

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

You hit the nail on this one, I have been looking for a job for the last 5-6 months and getting screened out of positions that require a PMP certification. This is a living nightmare for me. I refuse to take this stupid test because all it does is check whether you can memorize and regurgitate the contents of a 600 page book which would make user manuals written in Chinese look more readable. (Full disclosure - I don't read Chinese).

I know people from my last workplace who are certified PM professionals and they couldn't manage a tech project if their lives depended on it. This thing is a huge scam, getting certified can cost between $2000 - $4000 depending on who you go with then there are yearly costs of maintaining your certification. This is an out and out scam of gigantic proportions just check their member count!

My advice is just pay it and get the credential. I don't have PMP but was seriously considering it last job hunt. You can find outfits that guarantee a cert for about $2500.

I don't work in software/ IT project management. I have worked as a PM in industrial construction and for hardware product design and development.
I can assure you that nothing in the PMP Body of Knowledge theory course will tell you what to do when you discover two dozen of your ironworkers and pipe fitters are spending half of third shift playing touch football out behind the plant at a combined wage of more than $2,000 / hr.

Still, the PMP is a relatively small mugging; just pay for it and get a job, THEN work against it from the inside.
Free unsolicited advice, worth every penny you paid.

[Munger]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

This reminds me of a quote from Atlas Shrugged:

From Francisco's 'Money' speech:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2158115/posts

Gawd, I forgot what an awful writer Ayn was; the Rube-Goldberg of English.

[Raz]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

Gawd, I forgot what an awful writer Ayn was; the Rube-Goldberg of English.

And I forgot just how piercingly correct she could be. Every word of that particular quote is absolutely true.

Her social and moral views, however, were repugnant. She exalted selfishness and had all the compassion of a beehive.

[GRG55]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

I see two corrupt shakedown rackets, one gov't and one private. I have more trouble with the private rackets. They cost more and they never end.

The ones I see are credentials rackets. My favorite is the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification. Most large employers now require their PMs to have this credential, and it requires periodic refresher training at top dollar from trainers certified by the Project Management Institute. I see no evidence that America is getting better projects, but the PMI and its authorized vendors have grown like crazy.

My state has recently required us registered professional engineers to pay for continuing education credits each year. A community of racketeers has sprung up selling PE continuing ed courses of dubious value but steep prices. To keep your license you must pay up every year.

The Canadian jurisdiction where I used to be a registered Professional Engineer brought in something similar more than a decade ago. Most self-regulating professions have something like this.

My sense is that, at least as far as the self-regulating professions are concerned, in moderation it can be something virtuous [the profession itself has the responsibility to protect the public interest] but as with anything in human affairs, when taken to excess it becomes destructive. The various self- regulating professions have had differing success restricting access in order to raise remuneration. The shining example that all professions are envious of are Medical Doctors. By severely restricting the access to that profession, starting with limiting the number of medical school students and then at every step through the profession, including legally mandated definitions of what must be performed only by doctors [and not nurses or others], medical doctors have historically commanded exceptional levels of remuneration.*

Lawyers, by comparison, have been much less successful at limiting access to their profession.


When the recurrency training standards include the sort of thing described by flintlock below...

Yep, Private companies spend a lot of money trying to restrict competition. Through private AND public certifications. That's pretty much what business in America is becoming. They can't compete on a level playing field so everyone wants to fix the game. My last continuing education for electrical contracting consisted of classes on how to avoid getting sued, ethics, worker's compensation, and mold. I kind of doubt that this continuing education was sold to the legislature as being about business. It was sold as being about keeping up with changes in the profession. Code changes, safety, etc. Which I would agree with. They throw business stuff in there because A) most contractors could care less about the actual trade and B) It allows any business school hack to teach it.

Disclaimer: I am also a business major.

...one can be pretty well assured that protecting the public interest has taken a back seat to finding ways to further restrict access to the profession...

* My comments should not be taken as a slam to the honourable medical profession, or a personal slight to any of our iTulip members who are doctors. I just don't think that the AMA or its Canadian equivalent can be characterized as working purely and altruistically in the public interest...although that is what they would like us to believe.

[dropthatcash]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

Gawd, I forgot what an awful writer Ayn was; the Rube-Goldberg of English.

Way to miss the forest from the trees.

[DSpencer]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

If it was in the employers' private interest they wouldn't "need" a law requiring it would they?

It's very obvious why the vast majority of these regulations exist and it has nothing to do with protecting the public, saving lives or even helping businesses protect themselves. It has everything to do with barriers to entry that protect profit margins and keeping bureaucrats employed.

[wayiwalk]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

I see two corrupt shakedown rackets, one gov't and one private. I have more trouble with the private rackets. They cost more and they never end.

The ones I see are credentials rackets. My favorite is the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification. Most large employers now require their PMs to have this credential, and it requires periodic refresher training at top dollar from trainers certified by the Project Management Institute. I see no evidence that America is getting better projects, but the PMI and its authorized vendors have grown like crazy.

My state has recently required us registered professional engineers to pay for continuing education credits each year. A community of racketeers has sprung up selling PE continuing ed courses of dubious value but steep prices. To keep your license you must pay up every year.

Things are a little better for the PE continuing ed here for NY PEs....there are a few decent outfits providing training that is practical and worthwhile....maybe it will reach out there soon.

I obtained my license before continuing ed was required, and followed the debate. One of the arguments was, "doctors are required to take continuing ed to maintain the medical license".

Ahem. Last time I looked, an engineer didn't make anywhere near what the typical doctor makes.

Argh!

NY State has a boatload of senseless professional registrations. Given that the PE exam was the absolute toughest test I have encoutered in 4 years of undergrad and 5 years of graduate work, I'd say it has really diminished the reputation of accreditation.

[wayiwalk]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

Gawd, I forgot what an awful writer Ayn was; the Rube-Goldberg of English.

Yes. I don't think anyone picks up "Anthem" when they are in the mood for poetry.

I see Atlas Shrugged as more of a road map for the fed'l gov't growing and failing to respect the ideas of the constitution.

[Munger]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

If it was in the employers' private interest they wouldn't "need" a law requiring it would they?

It's very obvious why the vast majority of these regulations exist and it has nothing to do with protecting the public, saving lives or even helping businesses protect themselves. It has everything to do with barriers to entry that protect profit margins and keeping bureaucrats employed.

Reading comprehension. Learn it. Live it.

The original post:

I have more trouble with the private rackets. They cost more and they never end. The ones I see are credentials rackets. My favorite is the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification. Most large employers now require their PMs to have this credential, and it requires periodic refresher training at top dollar from trainers certified by the Project Management Institute.

[flintlock]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

The Canadian jurisdiction where I used to be a registered Professional Engineer brought in something similar more than a decade ago. Most self-regulating professions have something like this.

My sense is that, at least as far as the self-regulating professions are concerned, in moderation it can be something virtuous [the profession itself has the responsibility to protect the public interest] but as with anything in human affairs, when taken to excess it becomes destructive. The various self- regulating professions have had differing success restricting access in order to raise remuneration. The shining example that all professions are envious of are Medical Doctors. By severely restricting the access to that profession, starting with limiting the number of medical school students and then at every step through the profession, including legally mandated definitions of what must be performed only by doctors [and not nurses or others], medical doctors have historically commanded exceptional levels of remuneration.*

Lawyers, by comparison, have been much less successful at limiting access to their profession.


When the recurrency training standards include the sort of thing described by flintlock below...



...one can be pretty well assured that protecting the public interest has taken a back seat to finding ways to further restrict access to the profession...

* My comments should not be taken as a slam to the honourable medical profession, or a personal slight to any of our iTulip members who are doctors. I just don't think that the AMA or its Canadian equivalent can be characterized as working purely and altruistically in the public interest...although that is what they would like us to believe.

Couldn't agree more with everything you said. The principal behind the idea of continuing education is virtuous, the execution, at least in my case, is horrible. Agree also about restricting access to the profession. Its my understanding that Dentistry has taken this concept to the highest level of perfection. Dentists are my wealthiest clients by far, not the MDs.

[flintlock]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

No I am not in agreement with your views. I personally am totally in agreement with your stance. However, the web site you cited was probably reading too much into the Texas law. And given the declining state of civil liberties in this country, this characterization of the Texas law is beating up on something that is totally marginal in the larger view of things. This is like complaining that your little toe is getting wet, when you are up to your neck in swirling flood waters.

I just used that site as an example. But other sites like CNET also had similar stories. I would argue it's not "marginal" if you are a computer repair person in Texas. This could threaten your job. One story I read mentioned an existing company might have to shut down and then wait three years until he had the requisite "experience" to pass the PI test. Pretty relevant to that guy.

Years ago I was a (potential) beneficiary of this kind of licensing requirement. A neighbor (who knew way more than I would ever hope to know about this particular field) had to compensate me just to qualify his company to do a certain type of work. ( not electrical) I had the license he needed and he couldn't afford to give up the $350k a year he was making in order to wait until he was eligible. I was a nice guy and offered to just take a stake in the company if he ever sold it, not thinking anything would ever come to it. A few years later he turned down an offer over $10 million only to see it go bankrupt in the post 9/11 shtf!

I'm not against licensing. I just think it can go too far in some cases.

[flintlock]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

And I forgot just how piercingly correct she could be. Every word of that particular quote is absolutely true.

Her social and moral views, however, were repugnant. She exalted selfishness and had all the compassion of a beehive.

I have the same take on Rand. My guess is if we knew more about them, most "philosophers" would come out equally poor in regards to their personal life.

[Sharky]

Re: the explosive growth of occupational licensing and the economic damage it has done

Her social and moral views, however, were repugnant. She exalted selfishness and had all the compassion of a beehive.

Have you read any of Rand's nonfiction work? Her social and moral views are generally misunderstood.

If you're interested, the introduction to The Virtue of Selfishness is available on Amazon's Look Inside. In it, she specifically addresses the choice of the word "selfish":
http://www.amazon.com/Virtue-Selfish...der_0451163931

The first chapter, The Objectivist Ethics, goes into the subject in more detail, and is an excellent read:
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServ...ctivist_ethics