US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

[c1ue]

http://news.antiwar.com/2010/11/04/n...lance-in-oslo/

Norway’s government has promised to pursue reports of major US surveillance operations across the city of Oslo, with the Justice Ministry expected to take over the issue following Foreign Ministry attempts to get answers from the US embassy.

“We did not get comprehensive answers,” noted Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stone after the ministry met with US embassy officials. Justice Minister Knut Storberget insisted he had no prior knowledge of the US operation, which apparently used former police officers employed by the US embassy.

The story was broken by Norway’s TV2 channel, which found in an investigation that the US embassy was conducting “illegal systematic surveillance of Norwegian citizens.” The report said the former police officers were taking pictures and “registering” lists of Norwegian citizens who might be a threat to American interests.
State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley confirmed the spying operation, but insisted that Norway’s government had been informed of it. He added that a lot of American embassies conduct similar operations.

I especially like the State Department spokesperson's answer: we do it everywhere else. So what's the problem?

[Prazak]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Spycraft persists across the millennia. Norway doesn't spy on anyone else's territory?

[oddlots]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Uh oh. Looks like tsetsefly took me seriously when I suggested he try applying American antics (normally reserved for the third world) in a resource-rich, western democracy.

[GRG55]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Sweden says US has carried out secret surveillance

Associated Press Louise Nordstrom, Associated Press – Sat Nov 6, 12:23 pm ET

STOCKHOLM – People linked with the U.S. Embassy in Stockholm have performed surveillance activities in Sweden without the knowledge of the host nation's authorities, a government officials said Saturday.

The surveillance has been going on since 2000, but Swedish authorities are still not aware of how widespread the practice was, said Justice Minister Beatrice Ask.

"It seems as though we haven't been fully informed and that's not good," Ask said.
Ask said it is not clear whether Swedish law has been violated, but that she expects U.S. authorities to cooperate with the Swedish investigation on the matter.
She did not disclose who were the targets of the surveillance operation carried out by people who had been "assigned by the embassy to undertake the measures."

Ask said the activities "seem to be similar" to those unveiled in Norway earlier this week, which included photographing and gathering information about individuals for surveillance and security purposes. That information was then sent to the United States.

"We welcome that those countries that have a heightened threat risk apply their own measures to reduce the risk for attacks, but of course it has to be done in line of what the Swedish law says and permits," she said.

The Foreign ministry summoned the U.S. Ambassador to Sweden, Matthew Barzun, on Saturday in connection with the surveillance program, said Teo Zetterman, the ministry spokesman.

U.S. Embassy staff in Stockholm were not immediately available to comment on the matter.

Earlier this week, Norwegian media reported that the U.S. had systematically monitored Norwegian residents deemed potential security risks to the U.S. for the past 10 years. Similar to the case in Sweden, Norwegian government officials said they had not been informed about it.

[don]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Humint, human intelligence, pre-dates Alexander the Great. No country, power or sovereign would willingly give it up. Today countries, with mutual awareness, operate Humint, as well as tech- surveillance, etc. The above looks like a matter of transgressing a protocol between the US and Sweden. Somebody went "too far".

[Scot]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Why do the people of Norway embrace murderous terrorists obsessed with killing Americans? I thought we were allies. And why are leftists so willing to help these terrorists by spreading anti-American propaganda concerning America's efforts to prevent additional terrorist attacks through the use of passive means such as surveillance? And why is c1ue spreading this propaganda? He's going to get Americans killed!

Ridiculous exaggeration? Sure. But no more ridiculous than "US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant".

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

And why are leftists so willing to help these terrorists by spreading anti-American propaganda concerning America's efforts to prevent additional terrorist attacks through the use of passive means such as surveillance?

Some of us, including some of us libertarians and conservatives, are figuring that the dangers to our liberty from that surveillance are greater than the dangers of those terrorists.

By the way, surveillance by those with the power of authority never remains passive.

[c1ue]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Ridiculous exaggeration? Sure. But no more ridiculous than "US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant".

Except for one little problem: that the US chooses to engage in illegal behaviors on other people's soil is a choice.

That the US refuses to cease and desist even when caught - that's arrogance.

[Jeff]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

I started to write a post, but the ever eloquent cow took the words (or the cud) right out of my mouth. Hear, hear.

[Scot]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Some of us, including some of us libertarians and conservatives, are figuring that the dangers to our liberty from that surveillance are greater than the dangers of those terrorists.

By the way, surveillance by those with the power of authority never remains passive.

I'm not going to defend excessive monitoring of citizens, but taking pictures and getting background information on people that reasonably appear inclined towards violent action against the United States is not itself a threat to our liberty. The United States has no power of authority in Norway. That would be the government of Norway. The United States is doing no worse than what a homeowner concerned that one of his neighbors is operating a chop-shop in his garage, or is showing excessive interest in the neighborhood kids, might do. He checks it out, and if he finds evidence of wrong-doing, he goes to the authorities -- in this case, Norwegian authorities.

[karim0028]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Move along... No news here.... Every country spies on every other country... Even allies... Anyone heard of Israel? They regularly spy on their benefactor and do it shamelessly and openly boast of their aim to influence american politics.... There is an unspoken intelligence protocol. You get caught, declared persona non-grata and shipped back... Thats it.

This is just political "fluff" and a rebuke to the US to stop playing in their back yard. The US will say "sorry" and send back the "attache" and replace him/her with someone else, until he/she gets caught...

[Scot]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Except for one little problem: that the US chooses to engage in illegal behaviors on other people's soil is a choice.

That the US refuses to cease and desist even when caught - that's arrogance.

How do you know they engaged in illegal behaviors? Or is that what your prejudice tells you to believe?

As far as I can tell, a television station alleges that some Norwegians were employed by the United States to do something that might be illegal, including taking pictures and obtaining background information on other Norwegians.

But supposing there is proof. How can any reasonable person characterize this as a statement by the US that they don't respect the sovereignty of the nations of the rest of the world? It's ridiculous. The title of the story exaggerates what (might have) happened.

And that's the real threat to liberty -- crying wolf so many times that people just stop listening. What's worse is that those that wrote the article don't even really care about liberty. If they had their way, we'd all be living under some leftist dictatorship, liberty be damned. But they don't mind using fears of losing liberty against the very people that love it.

[flintlock]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

Move along... No news here.... Every country spies on every other country... Even allies... Anyone heard of Israel? They regularly spy on their benefactor and do it shamelessly and openly boast of their aim to influence american politics....

This is just political "fluff" and a rebuke to the US to stop playing in their back yard. The US will say "sorry" and send back the "attache" and replace him/her with someone else, until he/she gets caught...

Ha, exactly. This is the same old stuff.

[karim0028]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

How do you know they engaged in illegal behaviors? Or is that what your prejudice tells you to believe?

As far as I can tell, a television station alleges that some Norwegians were employed by the United States to do something that might be illegal, including taking pictures and obtaining background information on other Norwegians.

But supposing there is proof. How can any reasonable person characterize this as a statement by the US that they don't respect the sovereignty of the nations of the rest of the world? It's ridiculous. The title of the story exaggerates what (might have) happened.

And that's the real threat to liberty -- crying wolf so many times that people just stop listening. What's worse is that those that wrote the article don't even really care about liberty. If they had their way, we'd all be living under some leftist dictatorship, liberty be damned. But they don't mind using fears of losing liberty against the very people that love it.

I have no doubt this happened/s... Intelligence business is by nature illegal; it is subversion. If your Non-Official Cover (NOC) you are on your own. If you are "Official" embassy staff you get your ass sent back home...

[Starving Steve]

Re: US to world: your sovereignty even on your own soil is irrelevant

I'm still wondering how Scotland, part of the UK and an ally of the Western World, could release the Lockarbie Bomber to Libya, and to a hero's welcome, no less? Spying is old news, but releasing the Lockarbie Bomber to Libya is beyond news--- it's outrageous.

BP was involved? Maybe. But the Govn't of Scotland letting this happen in their jurisdiction, that is beyond news!