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Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

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  • Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

    Wherein the good prof. explains from first principles why the solution to the economic crisis = more spending OR debt jubilee OR inflation.

    Accounting Identities

    Peter Dorman has a good post on the meaning of deficit misses in Europe, This Is What Accounting Identities Look Like. It meshes with the way I’ve been trying to explain our mess lately; so let me go back to Sam and Janet — that is, to how to think about the role of debt in our problems.

    The background to the world economic crisis is that we went through an extended period of rising debt. Now, one person’s liability is another person’s asset, so rising debt made the world as a whole neither richer nor poorer. It did, however, leave the borrowers increasingly leveraged. And then came the Minsky moment; suddenly, investors were no longer willing to roll over, let alone increase, the debts of highly leveraged players. So these players are being forced to pay down debt.

    The process of paying down debt, however, must obey two rules:

    1. Those who pay down debt must do so by spending less than their income.
    2. For the world as a whole, spending equals income.

    It follows that

    3. Those who are not being forced to pay down debt must spend more than their income.

    But here’s the problem: there’s no good mechanism in place to induce those who can spend more to do so. Low interest rates do encourage spending; but given the size of the debt shock, even zero rates are nowhere near low enough.

    So since the world economy can’t raise the bridge, it is lowering the water: without sufficient spending from those who can, the only way to make the accounting identities hold is for incomes to decline — specifically, the incomes of those not constrained by debt must decline so as to create a sufficiently large gap between their (unchanged) spending and their incomes to offset the forced saving of debtors. Of course, the mechanism here is an overall global slump, so the debtors are squeezed as well, forced into even more painful cuts.

    To avoid all this, we’d need policies to encourage more spending. Fiscal stimulus on the part of financially strong governments would do it; quantitative easing can help, but only to the extent that it encourages spending by the financially sound, and it’s a little unclear what the process there is supposed to be.

    Oh, and widespread debt forgiveness (or inflating away some of the debt) would solve the problem.

    But what we actually have is a climate in which it’s considered sensible to demand fiscal austerity from everyone; to reject unconventional monetary policy as unsound; and of course to denounce any help for debtors as morally reprehensible. So we’re in a world in which Very Serious People demand that debtors spend less than their income, but that nobody else spend more than their income.

    And the slump goes on.
    http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...ng-identities/

  • #2
    Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

    Is it too much to ask that Americans pay their bills and to stop living-off of their children by kick-the-can spending policies and by pro-inflation policies? Is it too much to ask that Americans stop living-off of the savings of the world?

    Cut-spending, end the bail-outs, hike taxes, anchor the dollar to gold, stop shafting the kids and the pensioners, stop threatening China and Japan, and dig-out of this mess. Both the Demos and the Republicans need to hear the message, loud and clear.

    A stiff federal sales tax may well be in America's future. California will have to hike state sales taxes too. And the eco-frauds and economist-frauds will have to be purged from both political parties in America.

    Yes, the U.S. needs socialized-medicine and to rid itself of for-profit private healthcare. So there has to be major tax hikes, just for that reason alone. And then small business would be able to flourish because small businesses would not have to pay the health-insurance leeches. A couple of dollars per day in new healthcare taxes would be less of a burden for people (and for business) than writing cheques to for-profit health insurers like Kaiser-Permanente for $700 per month with user-fees and co-payments on top of that amount.
    Last edited by Starving Steve; October 31, 2010, 05:26 PM.

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    • #3
      Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

      I'm not sure which most typifies the worthlessness of the non-science Nobel Prizes: Krugman being awarded the Economics token or Obama the Peace token.
      Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

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      • #4
        Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

        Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
        I'm not sure which most typifies the worthlessness of the non-science Nobel Prizes: Krugman being awarded the Economics token or Obama the Peace token.
        Let's not leave Al Gore off that list, hmmmm?

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        • #5
          Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

          You understand, of course, that Krugman is pointing out that debtors cannot pay off their debts unless the savers determine to spend some of their savings ... as an identity .... so the you cannot have it both ways ...

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          • #6
            Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

            Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
            Yes, the U.S. needs socialized-medicine and to rid itself of for-profit private healthcare.
            Yes, certainly even more socialism is what we need to solve the problems caused by a mixed socialism/capitalism model in healthcare.

            And by that logic, if socialism is the solution in health care rather than returning to a fully "for profit" [shudder! profit! ugh] true free market health care model, then logically socialism is the way to go as far as supplying the other necessities.

            Let's have socialist food production. Food is more essential than health care, right? Without food you die right away. If socialism is the best way to get medical providers and manufacturers to provide affordable health care, then it logically must be the best way to provide food.

            Same for housing - let's save money by adopting a universal socialist housing system. That will save workers from having to pay for a place to live, right? Wow, what savings! Every family will get a nice little one-room unit in a nice tall cement housing complex building. For free! Wow!

            And socialist clothing production. No more inefficient private "for profit" producers of clothing! Government panels will decide what the latest fashions should be, the thread counts of bed linen, and so on. Lots of savings there! Just get rid of that expensive profit.

            And socialist transportation systems. The government will provide everyone with free bus passes. Huge savings for those who have to travel to work!

            We already have a mostly socialist education system, let's make it socialist all the way, from preschool through graduate school. (Oh wait, Obama's already doing this.)

            And socialist employment, period. Let everyone work for the government - this frees up private industry from ALL costs associated with the labor force!

            I can really see where the savings to private companies will be huge from this elimination of expensive private sector health care, food, clothing, shelter, transporation, and employment. Huge savings! All by eliminating profit!

            Geez, why should an economic system need profit, anyway? People should work for no profit, for no gain at all. They should just say to themselves, "ask not what the government can do for me, ask what I can do for the government." Or "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities." All this profit stuff is evil anyway. Get rid of the profit and you can really save money!

            Too bad my grandfather, who lived in the bad old days of a private "for profit" health care system, and was able to have a surgery and stay in the hospital for 12 days in 1944 at a total cost of $84.75, couldn't live to see the day when we were on the cusp of having "free" health care brought to us socialist-style courtesy of those who don't seem to have learned anything from the socialist economies in the former U.S.S.R., Cuba, or pre-"socialism with Chinese characteristics" China. We in America have been missing out on how great they had it!

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            • #7
              Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

              Originally posted by swgprop View Post
              Let's not leave Al Gore off that list, hmmmm?
              I could have named Gore and Henry Kissinger as well.
              Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

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              • #8
                Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                Is Krugman worried that the Republicans are going to curtail spending? That's like worrying about a elephant stampede in Alaska. It just won't happen. He may not like the way they spend or that they decrease taxes but in the end deficits will continue exploding. I read somewhere that the GOP identified 1 billion in spending cuts. That's like going to the barber and getting one hair cut.

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                • #9
                  Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                  Originally posted by Munger View Post
                  You understand, of course, that Krugman is pointing out that debtors cannot pay off their debts unless the savers determine to spend some of their savings ... as an identity .... so the you cannot have it both ways ...
                  With the zero-interest rate policy (ZIRP) of the Bernanke Fed, how can savers spend money when they don't have interest income coming in? No income means NO spending. Or are the pensioners to go back to work, and if so, where? There are no jobs. <--period

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                  • #10
                    Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                    The California Water Project works. The Hoover Dam works. The SF Bay Bridge works. The Golden Gate Bridge works. The Aswan Dam on the Nile River in Egypt works. Canada's socialized-medicine works. Medicare in the U.S. works. Social security works. Canada Pension works. The Canada Old Age Security Plan works. The Nelson River Project in Manitoba works. The Interstate Highway System in America works. The St. Laurence Seaway works. The Bonneville Dam works. The Tennessee Valley Authority works. FDIC works. Canada Deposit Insurance works.

                    It would seem to me that socialism works, at least more often than not.

                    Or maybe you haven't learned enough about capitalism from Wall Street and the games being-played there. De-regulation hasn't taught you any lessons about why we need socialism?

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                    • #11
                      Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

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                      • #12
                        Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                        Originally posted by Starving Steve View Post
                        With the zero-interest rate policy (ZIRP) of the Bernanke Fed, how can savers spend money when they don't have interest income coming in? No income means NO spending. Or are the pensioners to go back to work, and if so, where? There are no jobs. <--period

                        The debtors and savors are the yen and yang: you cannot have one without the other. The pensioners' savings are the debtors' debts. The debtors cannot pay off their debts if the pensioners do not spend their savings. It is a mathematical impossibility.

                        Thus, the reasoning underlying the lowering of interest rates is to eliminate the interest income of the savers to encourage them to spend their savings, thus allowing the debtors to pay off their debts. The other way at it is inflation or debt jubilee.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                          Good post, Munger -- but (as you are no doubt aware), it is unlikely to get a lot of traction around these parts. I think Krugman's presentation of the basic arithmetic problem is helpful, but at this point, Krugman's oft-stated preference for greater deficit spending as the best policy solution is polarizing.

                          Obviously, Krugman does not apprehend near-term danger of a loss of confidence in the currencies of the nations on whom he is urging deficit spending. I see greater risk, but the more fundamental issue is that I don't see a plausible end game. Even if "enough" deficit-funded fiscal stimulus were to create the marginal income required for private consumers to pay down their debts -- and even if such stimulus could be sustained long enough to pay down debts far enough to end the balance sheet recession in the private sector -- we would be left with an even less tractable public debt problem. I think the assumption is that once spending and growth in the private sector is robust, tax revenue will be sufficient to pay down the public debt. However, I think this rosy assumption is unrealistic.

                          Krugman didn't mention default as a method of discharging the debt. But, in addition to paying down the debt, having it forgiven, or inflating it away, default by the borrower is an option. In my opinion, default, forgiveness, or inflation are all better options than the slow process of shifting private debt to public shoulders. If we're going to increase the public debt through deficit spending, then we'd get more bang for our buck by using the deficit spending to get us through the aftermath of a period of rapid default.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                            Munger;179493]The debtors and savors are the yen and yang: you cannot have one without the other. The pensioners' savings are the debtors' debts. The debtors cannot pay off their debts if the pensioners do not spend their savings. It is a mathematical impossibility.
                            You're first sentence is absolutely true in an austrian economic system for instance, but is not true in a fiat based fractional system where money is lent into existence, and the created debt has no reserve backing it. Where is the savings on which the debt is based? The "money" was created out of nothing, on a promise to pay by the borrower. In fact, the debtors cannot pay off their debt without additional debt (read money) being created.


                            Thus, the reasoning underlying the lowering of interest rates is to eliminate the interest income of the savers to encourage them to spend their savings, thus allowing the debtors to pay off their debts. The other way at it is inflation or debt jubilee
                            This may be true in one sense, but I would have used the word coerce vs encourage, and added that this is nothing short of theft, but hey who's to quibble on such a minor point.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Krugman - Debt Reduction = Increased Spending

                              Chomsky needs to ask any immigrant from the old USSR about their opinion of the old Soviet system.

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