In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

[touchring]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

I wonder if China is recourse.....

It says here that individuals can't declare bankruptcy in China.
http://www.glgroup.com/News/Chinese-...Law-50347.html

This means an individual is liable for all debts, be it mortgage, car loan or money owed to another party, until death.

[LargoWinch]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

I found a decent paper explaining the differences between the mortgage industry in Canada vs. US:

True North: The Facts about the Canadian Mortgage Banking System

[Starving Steve]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

No I disagree SS.

A loan is BOTH the responsibility of the borrower and the lender.



BTW, how on earth do you go from mortgage debt to the "Feminist Movement of the 1970s" is beyond me.

I couldn't read your post which apparently requires a software download from Adobe to read. But just give me the synopsis of why a mortgage debt is the responsibility of both the lender and the borrower. I would think that a mortgage debt is the head-ache of the lender and the whole responsibility of the borrower. But convince me otherwise.

As for my distaste for feminists, let's save that discussion until this legal concept of why a borrower and a lender are BOTH responsible for a mortgage debt is answered.

I had a Knight of the Queen's Council explain to me otherwise, but I shall withhold his name in respect for his privacy here. (He may still be living.) Also, my dead lawyer and good friend, Alcide Marchesich in Edmonton, explained to me otherwise: A lender is NOT responsible for YOUR debt.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

I couldn't read your post which apparently requires a software download from Adobe to read. But just give me the synopsis of why a mortgage debt is the responsibility of both the lender and the borrower. I would think that a mortgage debt is the head-ache of the lender and the whole responsibility of the borrower. But convince me otherwise.

As for my distaste for feminists, let's save that discussion until this legal concept of why a borrower and a lender are BOTH responsible for a mortgage debt is answered.

I had a Knight of the Queen's Council explain to me otherwise, but I shall withhold his name in respect for his privacy here. (He may still be living.) Also, my dead lawyer and good friend, Alcide Marchesich in Edmonton, explained to me otherwise: A lender is NOT responsible for YOUR debt.

No, but a lender must be held accountable in some way for making a loan which cannot reasonably be repaid.

Non-recourse lending is the control on the lender to discourage them from making predatory loans.

Also, it should go without saying that a society which promotes freedom would never allow the possibility of a lifetime of debt servitude.

Canada and Spain do not have a freedom-loving heritage so their lending systems shouldn't be a surprise.

[Fiat Currency]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

I found a decent paper explaining the differences between the mortgage industry in Canada vs. US: ...

Thanks for posting that LargoWinch - it was a good read.

However, I couldn't help but notice that the CMHC now basically has a quarter trillion dollars ($245B) of mortgages on its Balance Sheet. One can't help but wonder how much this will cost the average taxpayer if/when our housing bubble get pricked.

[Starving Steve]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

No, but a lender must be held accountable in some way for making a loan which cannot reasonably be repaid.

Non-recourse lending is the control on the lender to discourage them from making predatory loans.

Also, it should go without saying that a society which promotes freedom would never allow the possibility of a lifetime of debt servitude.

Canada and Spain do not have a freedom-loving heritage so their lending systems shouldn't be a surprise.

I used to give $50 in cash for any military person who would write a personal cheque to my coin shop for $80. Eighty for fifty seemed to be a good return on my bet. After three good cheques, I would grant $50 for just a $60 personal cheque. This was kind of fun, but I soon learned the cheque-cashing business was not profitable.

I showed my IRS money-laundering auditor my collection of bad cheques from around Colorado Springs: "Account-closed"; "Moved"; "No such account"; "Insufficient funds"; "Three deposit attempts, NSF". I found it hilarious: In Colorado, you had to have three stars rubber-stamped upon the cheque to deem the cheque legally NSF.

When I was small boy, I used to collect postage stamps from around the world, not just coins. Postmarks on stamps were very interesting..... Well, in Colorado Springs, I collected bad cheques, and bank deposit-marks upon cheques returned to me were very interesting. I quickly learned that $80 for $50 was a LOSER's game, in terms of the effort and miles on my junk car that I had to drive to deposit cheques at the bank at the precise moment that the U.S. military paid its soldiers.

When I showed my IRS auditor my drawer filled with bad cheques, he almost fell off of his chair next to me. But anyway, he kept me company in a dark and cold Colorado evening, with the tumble-weeds and snow-blowing outside the shop.

I always thought the coin business was fun, but substitute-teaching in California's middle schools ( a few years later ) turned-out to be even more fun than being an economic-adventurer and entrepreneur in business.... But that is another story for another blog.

I should have sympathy for dead-beats???????? Did I read BuckarooBanazai's post correctly???????????

[mooncliff]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

so spain goes the way of japan...

housing bubble w/full recourse mortgage + arms -> bust + hardass legal enforcement = japan 1990 - ????



are mortgages in china full recourse, too?

Here are some price to rent ratios that go to 2007, showing further decline. I can't find one more current, but I would estimate that there was a huge drop of about 20% in 2009, so the graph above has to go down say another 30%, and I guess there will be another drop of 20% or so come spring.

[oddlots]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

Wow that is a great and really effective story at demonstrating the "service" banks are selling. I once told a family member that the only banker you know you can trust is the one that's saying no. The observation was met with incomprehension mostly, my father nodding, and then a memorably horrible family argument.

Shudder.

The thing that annoys me is that in the west bankers have been bathing in the glow of asset price inflation for so long that they have effectively taken on the aura of social workers: the argument in question had to do with securing a large mortgage with almost no documentable income. The idea that anyone could suggest some caution in the transaction even from the mortgagee's perspective seemed tantamount to defiling motherhood.

Of course that's a tangential point. Your friend was kicked while he was down which has been despicable from kindergarden on for anyone with an ounce of self-respect. (If that's how you make your numbers Mr Bank Manager then I hope you have a safe room in your house.)

The point to me is the disconnect between the public face of banking - the banking-as-service come on of "You're richer than you think!" etc. etc. - and the "when-the-going-gets-tough" side, which seems to involve a seamless transition to entrail-ripping.

[oddlots]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

Canada and Spain do not have a freedom-loving heritage so their lending systems shouldn't be a surprise.

Oh for F's sake: are you on someone's payroll or what? Are you a croupier by trade? Can you seriously float a phrase like "freedom loving heritage" here with a straight face? You are clearly impervious to any educational value this site might offer so you should piss off immediately. Buh bye!

Well on second thought that seems kind of extreme. My apologies.

Here's what seems reasonable to me. The fact is that non-recourse lending is just more effective at monetizing the leverage inherent in the dollar reserve system. This is why no-one else seems to have it. The idea that this is somehow an attribute of a "freedom loving" society implies an ex-US world ready to carry the loss. That's hypocrisy plain and simple.

Any better?

[Spartacus]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

My understanding is that
1. several Canadian provinces do have non-recourse mortgages, identical to many US states
2. several Canadian provinces do have recourse mortgages, identical to many US states
3. in bankruptcy in Canada all debt gets wiped, even mortgages, recourse or not. "Recourse" applies until the bankruptcy discharge

4. the USA used to be that way (bankruptcy wipes all debt) but the recent US law allegedly written by credit card companies exempts some debts from being wiped.

5. Apparently in Spain mortgages cannot be wiped by bankruptcy

So, as reified in bankruptcy law, "freedom" (which here seems synonymous to "sticking it to the lenders") as a function of country currently looks like this:
freedom(Canada) > freedom(USA) > freedom(Spain)

Canada and Spain do not have a freedom-loving heritage so their lending systems shouldn't be a surprise.

I'm open to corrections, not being an expert in Canadian, US and Spanish bankruptcy law.

[Down Under]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

Steve, in Australia it is full recourse as well. The banks however have a nasty scam. This happened to a friend of mine. Brought a small lot house for $180,000 in 2004 with a 25% equity. Worked as a plasterboard fixer earning good money and made extra payments. Had a bad spill off the stilts (used to set ceilings) and broke both legs. When his private income protection insurance expired (six months) he was forced on to government assistance. This was insufficient to meet payments and live. He exhausted all savings and went to the Bank when he received a default notice. They foreclosed 2 months later. He had a 40% equity built up due to rising house prices. He was not worried and moved out as requested expecting the Bank to sell the property and return him his equity less disposal costs. The Bank (ANZ) held the property off the market for 2 years adding fees and charges monthly (as house prices were rising) The finally sold the house for $325,800 (December 2007) at Auction. After all costs he owed the Bank $28,000. They milked him of his equity and then some. Before it was sold he went to the bank on 5 occasions pleading with them to sell and release his equity. They told him he had No rights under the mortgage documents to demand/ force a sale and they would sell it when they "got around to it". A lifetime of hard work in equity gone and a broken and now bankrupt, hate filled Man. Every month he would get a statement of his position and every month he could see them screwing him.some the Charges included valuers fees to value the property every month, Lawn mowing and garden maintenance, rates, default interest charges(compounding) postage ,legal fees, handling fees, security monitoring fees, condition report fees, 'other fees and Charges" even a fee for monitoring loan status. $$$$$Thousands every month. They Raped him without mercy. Banks are in it for what they can get. A $140,000 original Loan cost him $354,000 when they finally sold it. F@#K em I hope they rot in Hell for what they did to just that one decent Man.

I've had little time for banks all my life; this would piss me off no end if it happened to me.

So, in hindsight, he should have sold before the bank took control.

[touchring]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

I've had little time for banks all my life; this would piss me off no end if it happened to me.

So, in hindsight, he should have sold before the bank took control.

The plasterboard fixer guy is already lucky to be living in down under because if he were living in HK, he'll be earning enough only to afford a cage. Welcome to the "New World Order".

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/as...mes/index.html

[Down Under]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

The plasterboard fixer guy is already lucky to be living in down under because if he were living in HK, he'll be earning enough only to afford a cage. Welcome to the "New World Order".

I'm more than happy that I live Down Under, let me assure you. But, nonetheless, the guy got royally screwed.

[thunderdownunder]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

[QUOTE=Down Under;179443]I've had little time for banks all my life; this would piss me off no end if it happened to me.

So, in hindsight, he should have sold before the bank took control.[/QUOTE

It was 3 months in Hospital in a cradle and 5 months in a wheel chair. as a single man(no real family) it was hard to pack when you can't move. I agree but I guess you think you can hold on up until you lose your grip. We did discuss it when I visited him in Hospital and he said he thought the Banks would understand his predicament.

[Down Under]

Re: In Spain, Homes Are Taken but Debt Stays

It was 3 months in Hospital in a cradle and 5 months in a wheel chair. as a single man(no real family) it was hard to pack when you can't move. I agree but I guess you think you can hold on up until you lose your grip. We did discuss it when I visited him in Hospital and he said he thought the Banks would understand his predicament.

Criminal; a few expletives would be appropriate but this is iTulip.

I watched Bad Call on 4 Corners last night. Also, criminal.