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If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

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  • #76
    Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

    Originally posted by flintlock View Post
    I was just discussing the "ego investment" people have in all this yesterday with a friend. A lot of mutual friends are buried deep in debt in their attempt to keep up with the Joneses. I'm always amazed at how many Americans worry more about what strangers think about their level of "success" than with taking care of their family. Americans are addicted to materialism. It's sick.
    From Money and the Meaning of Life - Jacob Needlman


    “Well, do you remember when that young woman who had worked in Central America mentioned the fairy tale about the fisherman’s wife?”

    “I remember it very well,” I said. “She was using it as a symbol of American capitalism and you finally lost patience with her characterization of all wealthy people as greedy and selfish.”


    “Apparently, what touched this man was my interpretation of the fairy tale.”

    “Not only him,” I said. “It struck me, too. You interpreted it as a story about the need to know what one wishes from life. You said, if I remember correctly, that greed is inevitable in the absence of an inner aim. You said that greed in one form or another tends to usurp the place of the inner wish to understand, and that almost every vice in human life represents a lower function trying to imitate the work of an undeveloped higher capacity within man.”

    “You have a good memory,” he said.

    “Not good enough,” I replied. “I remember ideas, but in the midst of a life situation, especially when money is involved, ideas don’t help, they’re not there, I forget.”

    “Because,” he said, “the inner wish is not an idea. It’s a force.”

    I took that in.
    “Is that what you meant when you said that speaking or writing about these things makes them sound too easy?”
    Another silence.

    “I agree,” he said, “with your main thesis—that in modern society money enters into every aspect of human life. That means that it enters into every aspect of ourselves, yes? Every impulse, every perception within ourselves is related to the money factor—or, to be more exact, the principle of personal gain. That follows from your thesis, doesn’t it? Personal gain, or the ego principle, is expressed through money in this society—I think that is what you’re writing about, isn’t it?”

    He went on:

    “When you say that in other cultures money was not as pervasive as in this society, you’re surely not saying that in those societies men and women were less dominated by egoism, are you? You are saying, as I see it, that it’s through money that the ego manifests itself most centrally in our culture. And that the ego is more, far more, than just vanity in its obvious forms. It’s the belief in one’s power to do, to be safe, happy, and fulfilled by one’s own efforts—without the help of a higher influence, yes?”

    Again, I nodded. “But the question,” I replied, “is, how to remember in the midst of a money situation that there are higher purposes and forces within ourselves.” “No, you go too fast. If you put it that way, you are lost. To put it that way only brings the whole spiritual quest into the realm of the ego. Of course, you can speak like that, you can even write books like that. But the fact is one forgets. There is no method that works. Money is just too powerful, life is just too powerful. I will be very interested to read any book you write about this, if you ever actually write it, but I am sure that after people put down your book, they will still be devoured by money situations. It will be good if you can help people come to a new attitude toward money; it is indispensable as a first step. But the question you are now bringing goes beyond change of attitude.”

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    • #77
      Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

      Originally posted by cjppjc View Post
      From Money and the Meaning of Life - Jacob Needleman
      For those that are interested, here is a link to this book: Money and the Meaning of Life.
      Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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      • #78
        Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

        Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
        One of the things I've come to realize as I've aged is that protecting one's ego is very expensive. Maintaining social status is very expensive and you never seem to get to where you have finally achieved a level of status that doesn't continue to require constant spending. That nice car doesn't look nice enough a few years down the line. The nice house needs redecorating. The nice clothes go out of date.

        It's really never-ending unless you become aware of how you can become a financial slave to the need to have a certain level of social status.

        I'm fascinated by the idea of finding a way to live life that gives me tremendous satisfactions but costs practically nothing because I'm not pursuing social status. Vibrant health doesn't have to cost much of anything and it feels phenomenal. Family who love you for you shouldn't cost much of anything. Real friends that are interesting to be with and care about you and you can have good laughs with shouldn't cost much of anything either. Sunshine and blue skies and nature can be very cheap. But so often we worry ourselves to death or work ourselves to death in jobs we hate so that we can maintain a certain level of social status...why? Are we afraid no one will care about us if we don't? Or perhaps that we aren't "somebody" and thus are nothing important if we don't have a certain level of social status? It's so freeing not to care about that. You realize how very little you actually need to feel really happy.

        Maybe all this financial trouble will lead a lot of people to that realization. (Though I imagine quite a few others will simply be emotionally scarred by it.)
        I did this. I left my past life and started anew. Gave up on a lot of things, and gained other things instead. I live very simply, on a beautiful mediterranean island, nearby friends and family.

        The funny thing is, many of the people in my past "successful" life, people that are extremely "successful" themselves, privately are extremely intrigued by what I did. And I now have a fraction of the possessions they do. Some have told me they wish they can do it themselves. I don't try to sell them on my new lifestyle. It's a personal choice, and not for everyone. But I have no regrets.

        My decision was part doomer/mad max, and part running away from the "consumerism" plantation. Because no matter what you own, someone always has a bigger and better car, boat, house, etc... For too long I chased the wrong things. Not anymore. And I also feel more secure in case of the Mad Max scenario.

        And if Mad Max were to never occur, I have no regrets. The rest of the world could begin a new Bull Market accompanied with ridiculous consumption once again. But I already found what I want.

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        • #79
          Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

          Originally posted by gnk View Post
          I did this. I left my past life and started anew. Gave up on a lot of things, and gained other things instead. I live very simply, on a beautiful mediterranean island, nearby friends and family.

          The funny thing is, many of the people in my past "successful" life, people that are extremely "successful" themselves, privately are extremely intrigued by what I did. And I now have a fraction of the possessions they do. Some have told me they wish they can do it themselves. I don't try to sell them on my new lifestyle. It's a personal choice, and not for everyone. But I have no regrets.

          My decision was part doomer/mad max, and part running away from the "consumerism" plantation. Because no matter what you own, someone always has a bigger and better car, boat, house, etc... For too long I chased the wrong things. Not anymore. And I also feel more secure in case of the Mad Max scenario.

          And if Mad Max were to never occur, I have no regrets. The rest of the world could begin a new Bull Market accompanied with ridiculous consumption once again. But I already found what I want.
          I did something similar, but not to the extent you did. 13 years ago at age 54 I decided I had had it with the corporate world. During the previous 10 years, I spent most of my time either finding a buyer for the company I worked for or buying a company for the company I worked for. Although it was fun, it sure did not really seem productive. So I quit. I bought a house in the foothills of Western North Carolina and started gardening. After my wife of 41 years died of cancer, I remarried and am now part of a large family (14 grandchildren), most of whom live near by. I have no where near the wealth or possessions I could have had by continuing to work, but I have my church, my family, my gardening and travel (we are hooked on cruising). My life is so much simpler than it was and I love it.

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          • #80
            Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

            Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
            I've read Ferfal's blog, and while he has lots of good information about survival, his tales of life in Argentina sound like pure bs. My wife is Argentine and all her family still lives there, most in Bariloche, a resort town in northern Patagonia, and the rest in and around BsAs. They never experienced anything like he describes.
            That's actually good to know, because I don't want to recommend things that are inaccurate, and because the thought that things could get that bad depresses me. I can survive hardships- I've done it before and I can do it again. But I like my simple, semi-comfortable lifestyle and would rather keep it if possible.

            Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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            • #81
              Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

              Originally posted by jiimbergin View Post
              ... I have no where near the wealth or possessions I could have had by continuing to work, but I have my church, my family, my gardening and travel (we are hooked on cruising). My life is so much simpler than it was and I love it.
              Yes, indeed. I have enough to take care of myself and my wife,
              and [hopefully] to assist others in need - if I manage it well.

              Continueing to work 60+ hours each week to build a bigger pile is foolish.

              St. Luke: 12:15.

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              • #82
                Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                Agreed. The return I get from my sons every day is worth all the lost wages and wealth I might have had if I had spent that time being the driven executive the world has always wanted me to be. Beyond that if I had to guess who will be there when I am 75, Wall Street, The Government, The FED, Apple ect ... or them I'll take them any day.
                Last edited by sunskyfan; October 20, 2010, 05:56 PM.

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                • #83
                  Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                  Originally posted by Master Shake
                  I've read Ferfal's blog, and while he has lots of good information about survival, his tales of life in Argentina sound like pure bs. My wife is Argentine and all her family still lives there, most in Bariloche, a resort town in northern Patagonia, and the rest in and around BsAs. They never experienced anything like he describes.
                  That may be, but the specific situation experienced by those of different economic classes as well as those of different rural vs. urban regions, is likely different.

                  There is no poverty like urban poverty.

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                  • #84
                    Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                    Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                    That may be, but the specific situation experienced by those of different economic classes as well as those of different rural vs. urban regions, is likely different.

                    There is no poverty like urban poverty.
                    No doubt. My in-laws are middle class and live in relatively nice areas. In a similar situation in the US, I would not want to live in a large city surrounded by the multi-generational welfare class.
                    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho

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                    • #85
                      Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                      I finally realized years ago that I could do more to ensure my financial security by learning to live simply than by working 70 hour weeks and trying to keep up with the Joneses.
                      In the course of my business I serve quite a few of the rat race types. They are basically my customer base. You would not believe the amount of projects and stuff people can cram into their home! And most of it is designed to impress some neighbor or friend for the brief moment they might drop by the house. It's their money to do with what they want, but some run themselves into the ground trying to have it all. Many are just bored and looking for something to do with their lives. They get a little high off "stuff" but it never lasts.

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                      • #86
                        Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                        Originally posted by Master Shake View Post
                        No doubt. My in-laws are middle class and live in relatively nice areas. In a similar situation in the US, I would not want to live in a large city surrounded by the multi-generational welfare class.
                        Me either. My father grew up poor in the 30s but they lived in a rural area and besides going without some things at times, they all thought they had a pretty good life. You could live without fear of being robbed, raped or killed. You had nature to enjoy and neighbors you could count on.

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                        • #87
                          Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                          Originally posted by Mn_Mark View Post
                          One of the things I've come to realize as I've aged is that protecting one's ego is very expensive. Maintaining social status...

                          I'm fascinated by the idea of finding a way to live life that gives me tremendous satisfactions but costs practically nothing because I'm not pursuing social status. .
                          I'm starting to dream of a cheaper, simpler life too. I don't think our problem has been ego or social status. But we've been fortunate enough to have 2 good incomes that have allowed us to live upper middle in an expensive area and accumulate a cushion (no debt).

                          Whether the future brings a personal or societal failure, I'm spending a lot of time worrying about it because we've never been tested. I haven't been "poor" (a very relative poor) since college. That and the fact that I'm 47 with a 2 year old daughter keep me up at night thinking about coming tests.

                          Originally posted by gnk View Post
                          I did this. I left my past life and started anew. Gave up on a lot of things, and gained other things instead. I live very simply, on a beautiful mediterranean island, nearby friends and family.

                          ...many of the people in my past ... are extremely intrigued...
                          Some of us are intrigued too!

                          I wont ask what island. But if you have any generic resources to share, I'd appreciate it. There are too many of books and websites about relocating to or adopting a simpler lifestyle. I'm only just starting to sort through them and formulate my goals.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

                            Originally posted by LazyBoy View Post
                            I'm starting to dream of a cheaper, simpler life too. I don't think our problem has been ego or social status. But we've been fortunate enough to have 2 good incomes that have allowed us to live upper middle in an expensive area and accumulate a cushion (no debt).

                            Whether the future brings a personal or societal failure, I'm spending a lot of time worrying about it because we've never been tested. I haven't been "poor" (a very relative poor) since college. That and the fact that I'm 47 with a 2 year old daughter keep me up at night thinking about coming tests.



                            Some of us are intrigued too!

                            I wont ask what island. But if you have any generic resources to share, I'd appreciate it. There are too many of books and websites about relocating to or adopting a simpler lifestyle. I'm only just starting to sort through them and formulate my goals.
                            I highly recommend this book:

                            Early Retirement Extreme: A philosophical and practical guide to financial independence by Jacob Lund Fisker.

                            It has a lot of good insights, a lot of good ideas for identifying ways to reduce expenditures and save money. The author's discussion of Important Financial Ratios in Ch. 7 is a real eye-opener. He has charts showing what your savings rate percentage per year must be, and for how long you need to save at that rate, in order to create an emergency fund that will carry you for X amount of time, or be able to live without working for X number of years.

                            Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

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