If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

[shiny!]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Consider sprouting your beans a little bit prior to cooking them. Mung beans and lentils are ideal for this. Sprouting increases their protein and nutrient content, improves nutrient assimilation, and shortens cooking time. The latter is useful for when you have to conserve on fuel.

You can also sprout beans and seeds fully instead of cooking them. For example, five pounds of Quinoa seed prepared as sprouts will stretch a lot farther than five pounds of Quinoa seed cooked in a pot for meals. Sprouting just requires a few Mason jars, screens for lids, and water for rinsing. No cooking fuel necessary.

Cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, radish, etc.) are far more nutritious when eaten as sprouts than when eaten as fully grown vegetables.

An added benefit to sprouting is that the seeds take very little room to store. If you don't have room for a garden, just eat sprouts!

[shiny!]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

But an alarm system, security lighting, a good dog, good neighbours, and other practical passive/active measures that don't have to cost a fortune can be implemented to make the naughty folks choose to burgle your neighbour down the street instead of you...because they are going to try and burgle someone.....better the lazy guy down the street than your family.

For security, don't forget Window Bars! Window bars are excellent for sending burglars to the lazy guy down the street. I'm not a big fan of alarm systems. They require ongoing payments, electricity, and a functioning dispatcher and police department to work. From my own experience with several business burglaries, alarm systems were absolutely useless. Our store was hit several times by "smash and grab" guys who were long gone before the police arrived. Once we ditched the alarm system and got window and door bars, we never experienced another break-in.

Home window bars are inexpensive; you can get the do-it-yourself kind from Home Depot. They even make the quick-release type you need for fire escape windows. Whenever we move, the first thing my husband does is install window bars. Some people say that bars would make them feel like they're in prison. I think that's silly, but if you get the black ones you won't notice them when looking outside. In addition to deterring burglars when we're not home, they also give me a secure feeling when I'm at home alone at night, because my bulldog has so far turned out to be a lousy guard dog.

*************

For cooking without fuel, get a Solar Oven and a dark colored pot to go with it.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Really now, what are some practical things that can be done in this environment?

To me this is the thread's key question and that's the question's key word.

I've never lived through a riot though there was the Overtown riots in Miami in the 80s. It wasn't terribly inconvenient for most of us. I think I recall I-95 being closed down for a short while. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_riots

This crash incentivized me to end what had become a stagnating five-year vacation, head back to school for my third career, realizing I was happier when I worked and now no longer trusting our economy. I do not like money and consider it more security than anything else. I do not like capitalism which I see as just another system which requires pain and suffering to thrive. But then, outside of evolutionary purposes, I'm not so crazy about survival of the fittest & animals eating animals, so don't judge by me. I think life was so badly designed that its possibly a mistake, but sometimes you have to make do with what you've got.

To be practical, I've relocated near one of the largest universities in the country which is also the fourth largest employer in this metro area. As well, I've got the seventh largest employer very nearby and the supporting community. Besides that I liked this location even when I first attended school here 30plus years ago, specifically I relocated for the locally relatively stable employment base (even though the metro area is hurting as is this entire state), the lower cost of living (health insurance fell 23% for the same policy, insurance for two houses here less than one where I used to live, etc.), for its consistant renter base as well as conveniences: walkability; nearby nature; $20 school theater tickets; continuing education & lectures; free gym membership with class enrollment or minimal cost as alumni plus half a normal price for university trained trainer; cheapo massages; $5 canoe rentals, the list of advantages goes on.

In relocating to this lower cost area, I bought property suitable so a housemate will provide me a stream of income and I've a rental house. Property taxes are somewhat protected from rising out of control, held to cpi or max increases up to 3% by homestead or up to 10% without. I ported value from my past residence which reduced taxes here upon downsizing. I haven't seen my new tax bill since applying for homestead change but I estimate that one month's rent from my housemate will pay the year's tax on my residence.

My new property in a built-out area is large enough to subdivide if I ever wanted to sell off a parcel but I plan to plant fruit trees and vegetable gardens as I learn more about that (my last garden was strictly tropical, 30 different species of palms, etc). Though I don't expect civil unrest any time soon--and, frankly, I don't care to live in such a world so it is not much my concern what might then be my fate--currently I am planting bamboo around the perimeter, clumpers which will eventually grow into a practically impenetrable barrier 30-60 feet tall. Mostly I'm planting because I love bamboo but also its a bit of parady on the fear of civil unrest. I suspect the city will not allow the 30 foot tall gate I've planned for the front drive, or moat and draw bridge. Regardless, in three to four years it is going to look stunning, even if, by then, hoodlums have tanks to crash thru it.

While I'm growing oranges & baby corn & bamboo shoots for stir fry, my brother currently has a ranch in south Florida which is used for horses but could be converted. Also he is considering a larger ranch out west for raising cattle. I'm not a meat eater but I suppose I could be if need be so if worse comes to worst, we should be okay. We have a good family and are friendly with many of our cousins so there's no reason why, if the world falls apart, we couldn't pool our resources and continue living relatively well. But I really don't see that happening. I think that survival of the species, as humanity and not just as individuals will rule. I think that even a starving man crawling out of the desert will chose to eat first a clean piece of meat over a dirty one, that even in despair, refinement, not further degradation, attracts us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamboo

"humanity emerged from a bamboo stem"

"...In this species, all plants of the same stock flower at the same time, regardless of differences in geographic locations or climatic conditions, then the bamboo dies. The lack of environmental impact on the time of flowering indicates the presence of some sort of “alarm clock” in each cell of the plant which signals the diversion of all energy to flower production and the cessation of vegetative growth. This mechanism, as well as the evolutionary cause behind it, is still largely a mystery."

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Consider sprouting your beans a little bit prior to cooking them. Mung beans and lentils are ideal for this. Sprouting increases their protein and nutrient content, improves nutrient assimilation, and shortens cooking time. The latter is useful for when you have to conserve on fuel.

You can also sprout beans and seeds fully instead of cooking them. For example, five pounds of Quinoa seed prepared as sprouts will stretch a lot farther than five pounds of Quinoa seed cooked in a pot for meals. Sprouting just requires a few Mason jars, screens for lids, and water for rinsing. No cooking fuel necessary.

Cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, radish, etc.) are far more nutritious when eaten as sprouts than when eaten as fully grown vegetables.

An added benefit to sprouting is that the seeds take very little room to store. If you don't have room for a garden, just eat sprouts!

Quinoa is a great choice for survival foods. Definitely the healthiest grain/corn/legume that can be stored for long periods of time.

[ASH]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

What can one do to protect one self in this environment?

...

For some reason I have been feeling a terrible sense of dread that I can't shake off.

I'm curious to know if fear of a worse economic and social calamity has risen recently, and if so, why. My perception is that threads like this were started somewhat more frequently during the first year or two of the crisis. Today, I got an email advertisement from Costco for a year's supply of freeze-dried food... seems a little more mainstream than before. Anyone have insight into whether fear of an economic/social collapse is on the rise again? Is hope wearing off, and faith in quick fixes failing? For my part, I agree with those who are expecting the more gradual onset of harder times. I've made my preparations for a short crisis, and laid my plans for a long one, but I think the more likely challenge I'll face over the next 35 years will simply be maintaining my current standard of living -- not so much fighting off looters or stretching the fall harvest through a cold winter.

[jiimbergin]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

I'm curious to know if fear of a worse economic and social calamity has risen recently, and if so, why. My perception is that threads like this were started somewhat more frequently during the first year or two of the crisis. Today, I got an email advertisement from Costco for a year's supply of freeze-dried food... seems a little more mainstream than before. Anyone have insight into whether fear of an economic/social collapse is on the rise again? Is hope wearing off, and faith in quick fixes failing? For my part, I agree with those who are expecting the more gradual onset of harder times. I've made my preparations for a short crisis, and laid my plans for a long one, but I think the more likely challenge I'll face over the next 35 years will simply be maintaining my current standard of living -- not so much fighting off looters or stretching the fall harvest through a cold winter.

I tend to agree with you, but I do believe that the probability of a more serious collapse can not be ignored. I think a lot more people are beginning to feel this way also.
jim

[Mn_Mark]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

I do not like money and consider it more security than anything else. I do not like capitalism which I see as just another system which requires pain and suffering to thrive....I think life was so badly designed that its possibly a mistake....

This was very helpful. Please post this "I do not like money/I do not like capitalism/Life was badly designed" stuff at or near the beginning of all of your posts. It clues me in immediately to your mindset and I can quickly skip to the next person's post without wasting more time.

In fact, if everyone who (for some reason I can't quite understand) decides to spend time and post on a financial website and yet hates free markets and money and thinks life is s**t would just post that as part of their signature or motto or whatever, those of us who do like capitalism and money and think life is pretty much an amazing miracle could save a lot of time reading through muddled nonsense.

[jpatter666]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

I tend to agree with you, but I do believe that the probability of a more serious collapse can not be ignored. I think a lot more people are beginning to feel this way also.
jim

That unfortunately was our feeling as well. That a regrettably non-zero percentage chance must be assigned to a temporary implosion. I'm confident that within a short period (more than one month, less than six) things would be brought back under control, but during that period it would be chaotic. We live in a JIT-world -- if there is a disruption, it will spread fast.

As doomer as Automatic Earth is, one thing they said stuck with me. Better a year early than a minute late. I haven't been buying sniper rifles and building survival bunkers, but I have a larger stockpile of the essentials for certain.

[jiimbergin]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

This was very helpful. Please post this "I do not like money/I do not like capitalism/Life was badly designed" stuff at or near the beginning of all of your posts. It clues me in immediately to your mindset and I can quickly skip to the next person's post without wasting more time.

In fact, if everyone who (for some reason I can't quite understand) decides to spend time and post on a financial website and yet hates free markets and money and thinks life is s**t would just post that as part of their signature or motto or whatever, those of us who do like capitalism and money and think life is pretty much an amazing miracle could save a lot of time reading through muddled nonsense.

AMEN! I feel blessed to have experienced this wonderful miracle of life for the last 67 years.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Consider sprouting your beans a little bit prior to cooking them. Mung beans and lentils are ideal for this. Sprouting increases their protein and nutrient content, improves nutrient assimilation, and shortens cooking time. The latter is useful for when you have to conserve on fuel.

Hmm ... interesting suggestion.

I've not gotten into a variety of beans yet; still in my initial "all pinto beans, all the time" phase. Pinto beans (from what I read and guess) don't sprout as reliably as some beans.

The key enhancement I've adapted is a pressure cooker. After soaking the beans for a day or two, it takes 36 minutes (12 minutes on high to get up to pressure, 24 minutes on low to cook) to cook them. That is significantly less time and energy than in a regular pot.

I'll have to add "sprouting" to the list of things I will figure out someday.

[Raz]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

...This crash incentivized me to end what had become a stagnating five-year vacation, head back to school for my third career, realizing I was happier when I worked and now no longer trusting our economy. I do not like money and consider it more security than anything else. I do not like capitalism which I see as just another system which requires pain and suffering to thrive. But then, outside of evolutionary purposes, I'm not so crazy about survival of the fittest & animals eating animals, so don't judge by me. I think life was so badly designed that its possibly a mistake, but sometimes you have to make do with what you've got. ...

Though I don't expect civil unrest any time soon--and, frankly, I don't care to live in such a world so it is not much my concern what might then be my fate-- ...

We have a good family and are friendly with many of our cousins so there's no reason why, if the world falls apart, we couldn't pool our resources and continue living relatively well. But I really don't see that happening. I think that survival of the species, as humanity and not just as individuals will rule. I think that even a starving man crawling out of the desert will chose to eat first a clean piece of meat over a dirty one, that even in despair, refinement, not further degradation, attracts us.


"humanity emerged from a bamboo stem"

You might want to get a paperback copy of The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis.
It will give you another perspective on human existence and the origin of the suffering that is common to mankind.

If that doesn't help and your dejection gets worse, you might consider relocating to Cuba. They don't like capitalism either,
they frown on individualism of any sort and the idea of "group rights" takes precedence.

I also hear that it's a worker's paradise.

[goodrich4bk]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

I'm curious to know if fear of a worse economic and social calamity has risen recently, and if so, why.

Me too, Ash. I don't think it is rational, but it is nevertheless real and growing. At some point, it may not matter whether it is rational because it could become self-fulfillng.

At the level of the individual, there is certainly no shortage of reasons to fear the worst. Most of my clients (I am a bankruptcy attorney) are middle class (or, more accurately, soon to be formerly middle class) and they are both figuratively and emotionally jumping off cliffs. One family I know personally. I coached Little League with him when our boys were the same age. They lived in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in my very expensive Marin County. They have over $500k of credit card debt and have sold almost everything they once owned, including liquidating all their retirement accounts. Their cards are now getting cut off and they have nowhere to go other than back home to live with their parents. They are in their 50's and are not likely employable at anything other than a minimum wage (they had a small construction and real estate business for 25 years).

I'm reminded that my grandfather lost everything in the Great Depression, including his three story home and auto dealership in Seattle. When I was a boy, my father liked to drive me around Manchester, WA, pointing to all of the homes he lived in when he was my age ---- over 20 homes in 3 years. We all laughed at the story, but it wasn't until I became a bankruptcy attorney that we realized his parents had been moving to keep ahead of the eviction notices. They eventually retired in a trailer park after WWII, fortunately saved by Social Security.

Through that lens, I see hardship and struggle coming to many Americans, but no reason for desparation. My grandfather once told me that his little mobile home was more comfortable than that three story house, and I don't think it was just sour grapes. He loved television, something he never had in the 1930's, and marvelled at all the new ideas and activities that he believed made life much more stimulating in the 1960's than when he was young.

If we are to believe Toffler, progress may well be accellerating fasther than our over-leveraged economy is declining. As just one example, imagine a google-inspired network of instant messaging that allows everybody in a neighborhood to broadcast in real time their desired destinations. So if I need to go to the grocery store, the system immediately identifies my starting location and destination, and and the network matches me with a nearby driver who is heading in that general direction. When he arrives at my house, we exchange PIN's that allow my bank to transfer payment to his bank for a fair cost of the ride, and when I reach my destination a second message is automatically sent into the ether to locate a return ride home or to yet another destination.

I am fairly certain that this idea is feasible now and that all it needs is a sufficient number of users, such as ZipCar. If oil prices were to really skyrocket, there would be a huge demand for such a service and, I believe, a huge demand for the law to protect such a system from legal attacks (i.e., you would be barred from suing any driver for an accident under a form of "good sameritan" exception). Suddenly, 40% of gasoline use (the short, local trips) could be cut in half with a corresponding rise in human interaction, something which almost always spurs other economic growth (think of the economic growth that arose from the invention of modern sanitation that allowed people to live much more closely than they could when separated by leech fields and cesspools).

That said, the sooner we allow the FIRE economy to collapse, the sooner the next, more sustainable, economy can get started. And for those clients of mine, the sooner there will be a sustainable job for them to do. The post-FIRE economy can be a better place and there is certainly nothing that requires it be Mad Max.

[ASH]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Me too, Ash. I don't think it is rational, but it is nevertheless real and growing. At some point, it may not matter whether it is rational because it could become self-fulfillng.

At the level of the individual, there is certainly no shortage of reasons to fear the worst. Most of my clients (I am a bankruptcy attorney) are middle class (or, more accurately, soon to be formerly middle class) and they are both figuratively and emotionally jumping off cliffs. One family I know personally. I coached Little League with him when our boys were the same age. They lived in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in my very expensive Marin County. They have over $500k of credit card debt and have sold almost everything they once owned, including liquidating all their retirement accounts. Their cards are now getting cut off and they have nowhere to go other than back home to live with their parents. They are in their 50's and are not likely employable at anything other than a minimum wage (they had a small construction and real estate business for 25 years).

Thanks for the response. Yours is a very interesting vantage point. You're talking about more (formerly) affluent people reaching the end of their resources right about now. It makes sense to me that we might see two waves of despair for a single recession: Those with little in the way of savings or assets who lose their jobs are plunged into poverty early in the downturn, but there's a second cadre of the more affluent who will make it through a few years before suffering the same fate. Certainly, losing one's job, lifestyle, and -- possibly -- hopes for the future must feel like the end of the world... and seeing this happen to those around you must raise one's fear. (Not your fear, personally... I mean "folks".)

I'm reminded that my grandfather lost everything in the Great Depression, including his three story home and auto dealership in Seattle. When I was a boy, my father liked to drive me around Manchester, WA, pointing to all of the homes he lived in when he was my age ---- over 20 homes in 3 years. We all laughed at the story, but it wasn't until I became a bankruptcy attorney that we realized his parents had been moving to keep ahead of the eviction notices. They eventually retired in a trailer park after WWII, fortunately saved by Social Security.

Through that lens, I see hardship and struggle coming to many Americans, but no reason for desparation. My grandfather once told me that his little mobile home was more comfortable than that three story house, and I don't think it was just sour grapes. He loved television, something he never had in the 1930's, and marvelled at all the new ideas and activities that he believed made life much more stimulating in the 1960's than when he was young.

Part of our problem is we've gone so long without a protracted downturn that it's easier to fear the extremity of the consequences.

That said, the sooner we allow the FIRE economy to collapse, the sooner the next, more sustainable, economy can get started. And for those clients of mine, the sooner there will be a sustainable job for them to do. The post-FIRE economy can be a better place and there is certainly nothing that requires it be Mad Max.

Sometimes I think the Mad Max scenario is emotionally easier to contemplate than personal failure in a world that hasn't quite failed itself. If you drop a rung or two on the economic ladder, but society is still functioning, and there are still people out there who are enjoying economic success and the odd latte -- only you can't get as good of a job as you had before -- then it's easy to frame that as personal failure. You'd know that you had the old standard of "success" in your grasp, but let it slip; you'd think about all your former peers pitying you, and wondering how you'd mismanaged your affairs. Although the practical consequences and attendant hardships are in no way commensurate, it might be more pleasant to conceive of apocalyptic economic failure, rather than personal economic failure: the Mad Max scenario lets one turn over in one's mind the fear of economic catastrophe, but framed in a scenario that is more protective of one's ego.

(Note: The above is pure psycho-babble BS. Not sure why I posted it, but sometimes I get strange ideas.)

[goodrich4bk]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Psycho-babble on not, I always look out for your posts as I think they are among most reasoned and thoughtful on this site --- and that's saying quite a bit! You're absolutely correct about the nature of this second leg down. Most people walking in my door today have fallen quite far already and, unfortunately, are generally more in denial than those who preceded them. For example, spending one's retirement funds maintaining an unsustainable credit card debt is one of the stupidest moves a debtor can make, yet it happens more frequently among the upper middle class. Perhaps they are confident that they can avoid BK and re-build, but all too often they end up pissing away exempt assets (the type you get to keep after a BK discharge) AND triggering non-dischargeable tax liability in the process (because of early withdrawal penalties and the pre-tax nature of many IRA accounts at that former income level). In contrast, a general landscaper and his wife I represented three years ago "strategically walked away" from their underwater condo and just called me last month to invite me to their house warming party. They had saved so much during the long foreclosure process that they were able to buy a foreclosed property (a real home in a cheaper neighborhood) for half of their former condo's value.

I also think many of us are wired for fear, which is why it is a favorite emotion of advertisers. I admit to cruising the zerohedge site much too often, often as a coffee substitute. There's just something about a disaster in the making that is hard to ignore, whether it is the collaspe of the dollar or Lindsay Lohan.

[flintlock]

Re: If there is a collapse, civil unrest, or anything that stops commerce, how will you fare?

Sometimes I think the Mad Max scenario is emotionally easier to contemplate than personal failure in a world that hasn't quite failed itself.

Bam! A nail hit squarely on the head! The truth is, during this decline, some of us will barely notice, and some of us will be hit hard. Much easier on the psyche if it all goes to hell and we are in the same boat.

A lot of what happens will depend on the area. There are definitely some areas I would not want to be living in when things get really bad. See Detroit for a glimpse into that hell. And I definitely do not want to be anywhere near a Walmart!

Someone mentioned neighbors. I also think they will become possible allies in all this. Time to get to know them.