The Sounds of Science

[Rajiv]

Re: The Sounds of Science

I was looking for something new. He did not say anything that I have not heard/read before. And, it was not related to a discussion of Darwin & God.

For me the issue that Lipton seems to address is not the issue of God, but rather one of the nature of consciousness, and the role that consciousness and intent play in the development of the individual and of the species.

Does the cell have consciousness? If so, what is its nature? If not, then how can cells co-operate with each other and develop into a complex organism? What is intent? Does the cell have intent? Does the complex organism have intent? Do we humans act randomly? Do cells act randomly? If not, then why should evolution be a random phenomenon?

I do not know anything about God. As far as I have observed in my life there are as many definitions of God as there are people, and is IMO a social construct -- so arguing about a social construct again IMO is useless, and socially destructive. However, there are many great mysteries that I observe around myself, and try to understand them to the best of my abilities, limited as they are.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Sounds of Science

A creator was drawn from the rules?
Or a creator has drawn up the rules of the game?

Your sentence is not clear.

I would say there is some order to the universe. This does not mean somebody designed it. It just may BE. That order may be defined as "God".

Humans may be genetically programmed to submit to a "higher power". However, perhaps this submission can be to anything --> the Secret, the Darwin, the Jesus, the Buddha, the Santa Clause, the Mary Jane, Fate, Money... You certainly can find examples of happy people in all of those faiths.

Sorry I typed poorly. I used the word "of" instead of "up" A creator has created the laws that govern the universe. Or else things have just worked out very well.

[cjppjc]

Re: The Sounds of Science

Does the cell have consciousness? If so, what is its nature.

Everything has consciousness. How to measure it is not clear to me.

[DToM67]

Re: The Sounds of Science

Researching/learning to the end of bettering one's understanding of his existence seems natural and admirable. The need to promote one theory at the expense of another/others (God vs. Darwin, etc.) is bankrupt. Human need to invent a greater power OR reason for existence is illogical narcissistic delusion.

[mooncliff]

Re: The Sounds of Science

A few courses in biochemistry, cell biology, genetics, and evolution will clear up a lot of the confusion.
Otherwise, it is like astronomers arguing about whether or not other stars have planets... just look, just build the devices and look... we are up to 500 extrasolar planets so far, and thousands more are soon to be announced. These questions cannot be answered by logical reasoning from obvious assumptions if the assumptions are wrong.
The wonderful mess of cell biology is highly instructive, as is the mess of the "design" of our bodies, and the completely nonsensical mess of our genome, with viral remnants everywhere, miscopying, duplications, deletions, frame-shift misreadings, horizontal gene transfer, a few percent of our DNA seeming to be from Neanderthals, genetic diseases, and on and on. And let us not forget infections causing mental illness... I have seen that first hand, and it is not pleasant at all... so if our consciousness is independent of our body, why is is possible to get drunk, have frontal lobotomies, have brain damage change your personality?
Yes, epigenetic phenomena can be very powerful, but they are part of normal gene regulation, not something that negates genetics and evolutionary theory; we are not talking Lysenkoism.

There may be life on Titan, in an environment we could not believe life could exist, but if it does, it does, and we are soon to find out.
http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...new-study-says

[Raz]

Re: The Sounds of Science

And I think someone needs an avatar that will make me want to read the post seriously. Keep smokin', buddy...I was reading Bronowski on the subway at the age of 14. Your obvious prejudice that all "religious" people are uneducated hicks falls on its face more often than you would care to think.

And while you're at it, we don't you try reading some Francis Schaeffer and St. Augustine. Oh, and how about a little New Testament while you're at that doobie.

I stand with you, cpnscarlet.


For the first 27 years of my life I was an agnostic. (An atheist who didn't want the scorn of the Baptists in my family by admitting I truly didn't believe in God.) At 28 years of age I met an erudite and intelligent Christian who didn't innudate me with raging hell-fire while waving a Bible in front of my face.
This man asked me to tell him about this god I didn't believe in, because he probably didn't believe in him either!
He suggested several books by Clive Staples Lewis and my eyes were opened to propositions I had never thought of.

About this time I also read a marvelous book on the history of the world, written from the view of economic geography, an excellent book that I loaned out and was never returned. After reading it I realized that I hadn't read the author's introduction so I turned back to it and began; near the end of that introduction he mentioned that the one point he hadn't addressed was the beginning of human exisistence, and where he stood on the Evolutionary consensus.
He said, "Suffice it to say that nothing we know of that even approaches the complexity and intricacy of life has ever occured by chance. The reader may assume that I believe the universe and everything within it has a designer, creator and sustainer".

I'm a reader of Aurelius Augustine, Athanasius of Alexandria (my patron Saint), Seraphim of Sarov, John of Krondstadt, C. S. Lewis, and even Dr. Francis Schaefer. And I'm a member-in-good-standing of the ignorant, unenlightened, "fly-over country" idiot class who has come to realize that the objections to the Truth are far more often volitional than intellectual.

[jiimbergin]

Re: The Sounds of Science

I stand with you, cpnscarlet.


For the first 27 years of my life I was an agnostic. (An atheist who didn't want the scorn of the Baptists in my family by admitting I truly didn't believe in God.) At 28 years of age I met an erudite and intelligent Christian who didn't innudate me with raging hell-fire while waving a Bible in front of my face.
This man asked me to tell him about this god I didn't believe in, because he probably didn't believe in him either!
He suggested several books by Clive Staples Lewis and my eyes were opened to propositions I had never thought of.

About this time I also read a marvelous book on the history of the world, written from the view of economic geography, an excellent book that I loaned out and was never returned. After reading it I realized that I hadn't read the author's introduction so I turned back to it and began; near the end of that introduction he mentioned that the one point he hadn't addressed was the beginning of human exisistence, and where he stood on the Evolutionary consensus.
He said, "Suffice it to say that nothing we know of that even approaches the complexity and intricacy of life has ever occured by chance. The reader may assume that I believe the universe and everything within it has a designer, creator and sustainer".

I'm a reader of Aurelius Augustine, Athanasius of Alexandria (my patron Saint), Seraphim of Sarov, John of Krondstadt, C. S. Lewis, and even Dr. Francis Schaefer. And I'm a member-in-good-standing of the ignorant, unenlightened, "fly-over country" idiot class who has come to realize that the objections to the Truth are far more often volitional than intellectual.

Until I was 38, 28 years ago, I believed there probably was a God, but, if He existed, he took no real interest in this world. I was too interested in my job (Chief Actuary of several insurance companies) and my family too really care much. I then read a somewhat radical book, The Late Great Planet Earth on a plane to an actuarial meeting and my life changed. The book made me want to really read and study the Bible to see if it really was God's word. I then read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity and I was hooked. I began to realize that all I had thought was important before was not that important. Being the Senior VP and Chief Actuary at 28 had little meaning anymore. My life was changed for the better forever. The peace that I now have is beyond understanding. I retired at 54 to follow my new life. I have never looked back.

[snowman111]

Re: The Sounds of Science

Until I was 38, 28 years ago, I believed there probably was a God, but, if He existed, he took no real interest in this world. I was too interested in my job (Chief Actuary of several insurance companies) and my family too really care much. I then read a somewhat radical book, The Late Great Planet Earth on a plane to an actuarial meeting and my life changed. The book made me want to really read and study the Bible to see if it really was God's word. I then read CS Lewis' Mere Christianity and I was hooked. I began to realize that all I had thought was important before was not that important. Being the Senior VP and Chief Actuary at 28 had little meaning anymore. My life was changed for the better forever. The peace that I now have is beyond understanding. I retired at 54 to follow my new life. I have never looked back.

Does the religion matter or is it the act of faith by itself? Would faith in an obscure South American indigenous religion return the same benefits?

[jiimbergin]

Re: The Sounds of Science

Does the religion matter or is it the act of faith by itself? Would faith in an obscure South American indigenous religion return the same benefits?

No, I am convinced it would not. I firmly believe that Jesus is the only way to true peace. Although I have 6 married children, 14 grandchildren, numerous nieces, nephews and cousins, Jesus comes first in my life as he does in most, if not all, of my children and grandchildren and our nieces and nephews. And we are not country bumpkins. Among us are chemical engineers, mathmaticians, physic majors, MBA's, CPAs, many with other master degrees etc.

[Rajiv]

Re: The Sounds of Science

No, I am convinced it would not. I firmly believe that Jesus is the only way to true peace. Although I have 6 married children, 14 grandchildren, numerous nieces, nephews and cousins, Jesus comes first in my life as he does in most, if not all, of my children and grandchildren and our nieces and nephews. And we are not country bumpkins. Among us are chemical engineers, mathmaticians, physic majors, MBA's, CPAs, many with other master degrees etc.

In other words, you are claiming the sole possession of the "truth" which ultimately is "unknowable" by man. Am I correct in intepreting you?

[Raz]

Re: The Sounds of Science

Does the religion matter or is it the act of faith by itself? Would faith in an obscure South American indigenous religion return the same benefits?

One may choose to believe that god is a toadstool or a carved rock, but that will not bring peace to one's mind and spirit.
What we are talking about is not "truth" as a concept, but a supernatural encounter with the numinous.

Nor are we talking about various truths, or truth "as you understand it"; Truth is a person.

[Raz]

Re: The Sounds of Science

In other words, you are claiming the sole possession of the "truth" which ultimately is "unknowable" by man. Am I correct in intepreting you?

When one accepts the reality of the Incarnation then one sees that Truth is a person.

If the Truth exists in a form unknowable by man, then Truth became a man so that man could encounter Truth on the level of a created being. It is the assertion of the Orthodox Church that God, Who is uncreated, became a man so that man could encounter God on the human level. To accept the reality of the Incarnation is to understand that in the very person of Christ all contradictions are solved.

For myself I could find no reasonable explanation for the bodily resurrection of Christ other than the one given by the Apostles themselves, and the witness of the Church. Men are willing to die for a lie - if they believe it is true; Hitler is an example of such. But had the Apostles stolen the body they would have known it was all a lie, and yet they all (save one - St. John) died horrible, violent deaths as steadfast witnesses to the reality of the Resurrection.


Christ compelled no one to believe this, and repeatedly stated that most of humanity would reject Him.
Yet not all objections to this are intellectual, for when encountering Ultimate Reality you will understand that rejecting it leaves you in a very cold place. But the desire to be accountable to no one is very powerful, and most men would prefer to be their own god.

Many have become comfortable in this cold place and give no thought at all to these matters. Others have rejected Him and vent their bile against those who have accepted Him. It is the responsibility of the Church to pray for such, and not to disparage them, for their time of visitation and encounter might not have arrived.

[snowman111]

Re: The Sounds of Science

One may choose to believe that god is a toadstool or a carved rock, but that will not bring peace to one's mind and spirit.
What we are talking about is not "truth" as a concept, but a supernatural encounter with the numinous.

Nor are we talking about various truths, or truth "as you understand it"; Truth is a person.

I understand, though your faith, faith in other gods would not bring "true" peace, but it would still bring peace and security to the person. Wouldn't it still be of value to the person even if, in your mind, it is from a less valuable source?

[Spartacus]

Re: The Sounds of Science

How did a Jewish Rabbi take on all the characteristics of a Hindu / Persian / Egyption apostle?

It's all a complete fabrication (aka Helenization)

http://www.howjesusbecamechristian.com/

http://www.google.com/search?client=...utf-8&oe=utf-8

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: The Sounds of Science

If there is no creator, than all of reality is ultimately without purpose.

The premise does not imply the conclusion.

Purpose need not be imposed by some external agent.