Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

[goodrich4bk]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

Just reading critically through the literature that came up on my google search of your Klebsiella Planticolla, as usual, I am lost. I need some clarification here: 1.) What does the term "ecological balance" mean? ( I thought everything in nature was in balance, by definition. ) 2.) What does the term "biological integrity of an ecosystem" mean? What precisely is "biological integrity" and what is an "eco-system"? ( I get lost if words and phrases are vague.) 3.) What is "a gene-altered monster"?
(This sounds like something from a comic book or sci-fi movie. ) 4.) What is "sustainable agriculture"? ( The only failing agriculture that I know of is in the Turd World. ) 5.) What is "a terrifying discovery"? ( If I check with my feeeeeeeeeeelings, I find scientific discoveries, whatever they might be, to be interesting, insightful, and helpful. ) 6.) What are "risky effects"? (Don't buy stocks or play commodities.)

And then I am in a bad mood about ecology since yesterday when 200,000 plant species (according to the BBC home-page) were eliminated from the list of plant species known on Earth. The deletion amounted to 1 in every 3 plant species known to ecologists. The reason for the deletion was a duplication error in the naming of plant species.

So, I have these other dumb questions: "WHAT IS A SPECIE?" Then how do ecologists "name a specie"?

I'll stay after class, and maybe you can explain these minor details to me. As usual, I'm lost.

After 5 minutes on the same google search I concluded that you are either too stupid --- yes, stupid, not ignorant --- to understand this thread or (and I believe this is the more likely case) not really interested in learning facts that are inconsistent with your original premise, i.e., that these scientists are just "eco-frauds" and are not at all "concerned".

As with most things in life, truth comes in shades of gray and is sometimes very difficult to discern. If you are Code Pink or Sean Hannity, it is not liklely to reveal itself to you. Steve, for some reason you seem unable to imagine that there might be very bright people blinded by ambition and greed who are willing to take enormous "systemic risks" to advance their personal agenda. I find that completely shocking given your other posts complaining about people like that employed in the financial products industry. Why you believe that none of those miscreants might also be found in a Monsanto lab is beyond me.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

Some of my recent posts have ended up in strange places, too. I started a thread the other day and my first post ended up at the bottom. What's going on?

I just started an iTulip blog post on this problem, at http://www.itulip.com/forums/entry.p...security-token

Shiny! -- what was the thread on which you saw this problem?

[c1ue]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

It is rare that I find myself in full agreement with the we_are_toasts and ggirods.

If you actually understand the process by which these genes are turned on/off, you might be more scared.

Essentially what the process is gene sequencing a particular encoding of DNA, then tailoring a virus to overwrite it. But these encodings are part of a literally 3 order of magnitude larger genome, and furthermore the way encoding is written can express in 3 dimensions. Or in other words, a single specific codon can actually be part of 3 different genes.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_code

Or in other words, the state of technology today is similar to a jet turbine being modified via shotgun blasts.

The genetic engineers know roughly where they want to shoot, and roughly how they want to shoot, but they have no friggin' idea what else gets hit and modified nor what it does. They are relying on the fact that most radical and unsupportable changes just get ignored.

And all this is just on the genetic engineering level.

The impact of super salmon in the wild is equally fraught with uncertainty.

I am in fact somewhat less concerned about that since this type of mutation can't be that unusual - almost certainly there are survival issues with having the growth gene turned on full time.

Then there are the unintended consequences:

The effects of more hormones on the salmon and its consumers.

The impact of feeding ravenous farm salmon - a process which already significantly impacts world fish supply via the scavenging of literally every possible finned animal.

etc etc.

[bungee]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

So, I don't see the issue with mankind speeding-up and guiding the process of evolution through genetic engineering.

But genetic engineering is not speeding up - we are doing something totally different. Nature does not exchange genes between different species on the molecular level. Nature never has and never will.

Would we give-up all of the benefits of biological science and medicine in the last half-century because of the odd mistake, like the mistake with the drug called, Thalidimide in the 1960s? .

Thing is Thalidimide does not SELF REPLIACTE! It does not have the power to move under its own energy. Life does self replicate and does move under its own power. Imagine if genes for Thalidimide production now occurred in a whole class of gut bacteria or staple foods never ever to be eliminated from the planet! What effect would that have on future populations?

Every endeavour of mankind has risk, including genetic engineering, but would we rather go back to living without science and return to dependence upon nature and faith?

In this instance it is the science that is relying on faith. Science has the tools to do the job but not the understanding to know what they are doing. Faith that what scientists have done will not have untold consequences as nobody knows the true risks because no one fully understand what has been done to the organism that has been modified. The interplay and regulation of genes is a very subtle and intricate process. You can't just take genes from one place and put them in another and expect them to do the same in the new place as the old. All the genes in an organism potentially interact with each other and regulate each other.

Has anyone observed the accomplishments of the people of Pakistan lately? The locusts and flies are living off of a rich harvest of people.

I don't really see how this comment is relevant?

Yes, we should critically examine what science and technology are doing, but we should go forward with our science and technology. We should go forward with our genetic engineering, and we should have no doubts about our future.

My understanding is that the world already produces enough food for the world's population it's just that much of it is shared by a relatively small percentage of the people. If this experiment goes wrong it likely won't be that small percentage that suffers it will be the masses that can't afford uncontaminated food.

Things is we just don't need genetic engineering, either just fewer bodies on the planet or a more equitable distribution of the existing food. So why take the risk when there is no upside? (other than a few muli-millionaires/billionaires making a few more millions/billions?)

[shiny!]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

I just started an iTulip blog post on this problem, at http://www.itulip.com/forums/entry.p...security-token

Shiny! -- what was the thread on which you saw this problem?

It was this one:

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/16830-Obama-Names-Goolsbee-to-Lead-White-House-Economy-Panel

There was also another thread, can't remember which one, when I wanted to "Reply to Thread" at the end, and my post got put in the middle somewhere as a reply to someone's comment.

Lately I'm noticing a significant number of timeouts when pages load, and yesterday when I tried to write a comment, I literally couldn't input anything in the Message box. Tried it with two different browsers and could not type anything.

Do you want me to post this in your Blog post?

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

It was this one:

http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthread.php/16830-Obama-Names-Goolsbee-to-Lead-White-House-Economy-Panel

Thanks. That thread looks like your opening post was made sometime in the morning of Sept 10, but was blessed with a time stamp of 8:48 PM that evening (all times CST, my timezone setting.) Since the replies you got all came during the middle of that day, they show up before your opening post at 8:48 PM.

There was also another thread, can't remember which one, when I wanted to "Reply to Thread" at the end, and my post got put in the middle somewhere as a reply to someone's comment.

I don't have much clue what happened there.

Lately I'm noticing a significant number of timeouts when pages load, and yesterday when I tried to write a comment, I literally couldn't input anything in the Message box. Tried it with two different browsers and could not type anything.

Yeah - something gets overloaded on the iTulip site now and then. The software stack used on iTulip (and on many other major forums) of vBulletin, PHP, Apache and MySQL, can be resource intensive under the load of enough active users, and can get bogged down when overloaded. I am not sufficiently competent in that software stack to have any useful advice on what, if anything, could be done to improve the situation.

Do you want me to post this in your Blog post?

Eh - no. It seems the problems you report here are distinct from the particular problem of posts getting posting dates in early 2003 that is the focus of that Blog post. Best not to get the various problems mixed up with each other.

Thanks for the detailed response. I will keep my eye out for further clues.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

After 5 minutes on the same google search I concluded that you are either too stupid --- yes, stupid, not ignorant --- to understand this thread or (and I believe this is the more likely case) not really interested in learning facts that are inconsistent with your original premise, i.e., that these scientists are just "eco-frauds" and are not at all "concerned".

As with most things in life, truth comes in shades of gray and is sometimes very difficult to discern. If you are Code Pink or Sean Hannity, it is not liklely to reveal itself to you. Steve, for some reason you seem unable to imagine that there might be very bright people blinded by ambition and greed who are willing to take enormous "systemic risks" to advance their personal agenda. I find that completely shocking given your other posts complaining about people like that employed in the financial products industry. Why you believe that none of those miscreants might also be found in a Monsanto lab is beyond me.

From my Webster's Dictionary, I read that a species is, "a fundamental category of taxonomic classification after a genus, and consisting of organisms capable of inter-breeding". (That sounds very impressive.)

So, if white corn can be breed to yellow corn, then is white corn a separate specie of corn from yellow corn? How about blue corn? Or is just corn, "corn" because only corn can breed to corn? Maybe this is a minor detail...........

Then I read from The Guardian on September 20, 2010 an article by Drew Nelles: "Scientists Slash Number of World's Plants by 600,000." Then I read the sub-headline: "Turns-out that many plants have multiple-names--- some have hundreds of names."
And then I get upset.......

Since there are only about a million plant species named by "scientists", a drop of 600,000 named-species of plants amounts to a drop of 60% of the plants on the "scientific" list of plants. BBC News had it sort of right and sort of wrong: The drop is not one plant in three but six plants for every ten on the "official" list. According to The Guardian, "400,000 species of plants is more realistic."

I only know what I read, and I understand even less..........All this news hits the fan on September 20, 2010.

I guess this would all be knit-picking if it weren't for the fact that ecologists or regional planners might stop a housing project if just one specie of plant MIGHT BE put into jeopardy. Oh yes!

How many animal species do we have? Fish species? Rare insects? Rare birds? The world just lost 600,000 plants.....

I fought ten weeks with regional planners at the Capitol Regional District of Victoria, BC to obtain a garage permit for a garage on my own property, in an approved subdivision of homes, because: salmon habitat MIGHT BE put at risk. No mind that no fish swim in my ditch, and no mind that my ditch is 700 feet above sea level; it was ten weeks of fighting and thousands of dollars of needless expense, all in the name of habitat preservation.

And if just one plant species were to be put at-risk, well, the fighting could have gone on and on........ A minor detail!

How many angels might dance on the head of a pin? We have some in governments and some lawyers to-day who would dare venture a guess. And that is more than a worry to me.

[seanm123]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

Perhaps they were planning for the future when global warming melts the ice caps and the Super Salmon fish of
the future ends up using your back yard for laying eggs? It would be tough for those Super Salmon to perform their

wild and crazy death-defying chase ritual with your big garage in the way!

Next time try the brown envelope approach it is usually cheaper and almost always fool proof!

[Starving Steve]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

Perhaps they were planning for the future when global warming melts the ice caps and the Super Salmon fish of
the future ends up using your back yard for laying eggs? It would be tough for those Super Salmon to perform their

wild and crazy death-defying chase ritual with your big garage in the way!

Next time try the brown envelope approach it is usually cheaper and almost always fool proof!

Yes, "the brown envelope approach" seems to be the way governments work these days, at all levels, almost everywhere. So maybe we should not be so upset at handing-over brown enevelopes to Afghan officials, etc.

[hayekvindicated]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

the problem is not with the genetic engineering but with the farming. Farmed salmon usually have a higher fat content than wild that have to content with strong currents and predators. And who wants to eat a fatty salmon?

Omega 3 fat is not harmful.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

Omega 3 fat is not harmful.

That much is true. Indeed most of us could do with increasing the ratio of Omega 3 fats in our diets, and reducing the Omega 6 fats.

However your comment implies that the extra fat on farmed salmon is all Omega 3 fat. That is not so accurate. Farmed salmon have a higher proportion of Omega 6 fats.

From http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/od/low...onbenefits.htm

Omega-3’s: Farmed fish is fattier -- much as farm animals are “fattened up," the same is true of salmon. This means that there are higher levels of omega-3 fats. But there are caveats regarding this:

1. Because of the contaminants, it is often recommended that farmed salmon be cooked in ways that reduce the fat content.
2. New feeds are being developed with less fish meal in them and more plant foods. In general, the more plant-based ingredients, the lower the level of omega-3 fats in the salmon. (Note that in the ocean, salmon are carnivores: they eat no plants at all.)
3. Even today, the percentage of omega-3 fats is lower in farmed salmon, apparently because of the soybean, wheat, etc., in the meal fed to them.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

How do I become "an independent expert" to be called upon to testify before the FDA or the EPA or the Energy Department in Washington, DC? Maybe I could testify before the Capitol Regional District in Victoria, BC? --- BBC News? ---the UN Climate-Change Commission? NOAA in Washington?

How do I become "an authority to do more studies"? Sounds good to me. And those brown envelopes: How fat, and when?

BBC News uses the term, "scientists say" over and over again; so how do I get to be called "a scientist" and have my "say"...?

[Guinnesstime]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

From my Webster's Dictionary, I read that a species is, "a fundamental category of taxonomic classification after a genus, and consisting of organisms capable of inter-breeding". (That sounds very impressive.)

So, if white corn can be breed to yellow corn, then is white corn a separate specie of corn from yellow corn? How about blue corn? Or is just corn, "corn" because only corn can breed to corn? Maybe this is a minor detail...........

Then I read from The Guardian on September 20, 2010 an article by Drew Nelles: "Scientists Slash Number of World's Plants by 600,000." Then I read the sub-headline: "Turns-out that many plants have multiple-names--- some have hundreds of names."
And then I get upset.......

Since there are only about a million plant species named by "scientists", a drop of 600,000 named-species of plants amounts to a drop of 60% of the plants on the "scientific" list of plants. BBC News had it sort of right and sort of wrong: The drop is not one plant in three but six plants for every ten on the "official" list. According to The Guardian, "400,000 species of plants is more realistic."

I only know what I read, and I understand even less..........All this news hits the fan on September 20, 2010.

I guess this would all be knit-picking if it weren't for the fact that ecologists or regional planners might stop a housing project if just one specie of plant MIGHT BE put into jeopardy. Oh yes!

How many animal species do we have? Fish species? Rare insects? Rare birds? The world just lost 600,000 plants.....

I fought ten weeks with regional planners at the Capitol Regional District of Victoria, BC to obtain a garage permit for a garage on my own property, in an approved subdivision of homes, because: salmon habitat MIGHT BE put at risk. No mind that no fish swim in my ditch, and no mind that my ditch is 700 feet above sea level; it was ten weeks of fighting and thousands of dollars of needless expense, all in the name of habitat preservation.

And if just one plant species were to be put at-risk, well, the fighting could have gone on and on........ A minor detail!

How many angels might dance on the head of a pin? We have some in governments and some lawyers to-day who would dare venture a guess. And that is more than a worry to me.

Steve,

People do not care about plants like they do for cuddly animals. If an endangered plant was in your area it probably would have gone unnoticed.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

...How do I become "an authority to do more studies"? Sounds good to me.
"...?

For a few years I had that job, and it IS good.
Every research report we produced had a conclusion or finding recommending further study at our usual rates.

[wayiwalk]

Re: Clarified: What does "genetically modified" salmon mean?

I see a downside as far as GM food crops when those crops are modified so they can tolerate higher levels of insecticide or herbicide....that's where I don't want to find any residue of such poisons to add to my intake. So not against GM per se, only how they fit into the whole picture.