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  • The Military-Industrial Complex...

    ...is alive and well and living in D.C. [Or "How Combat Aircraft Trump Blacktop and Railroads Any Day"...]

    Looks like the Saudi's are single handedly proposing a "stimulus program" for Boeing and United Technologies that's a cool $10B's bigger than the one Obama has just proposed for all of the rest of the nation.
    U.S. $60 Billion Saudi Arms Sale Close to Congressional Notice


    Sep 13, 2010 2:23 PM MT

    Congress may be notified as early as this week about a proposed U.S. weapons sale to Saudi Arabia of Boeing Co. F-15 fighter jets and helicopters and choppers made by United Technologies Corp., a defense official said.

    The previously disclosed arms package is believed to be the largest in U.S. history, the official, speaking on condition of anonymity, told reporters today. Once the proposal has been formally submitted to the House and Senate foreign affairs committees, Congress has 30 days to reject the package.

    The package includes 84 new F-15s and upgrades to 70 more in the Saudi inventory at a cost of $30 billion, and helicopter sales totaling about $30 billion that include spare parts, training simulators, long-term logistics support and some munitions. It also includes versions of Chicago-based Boeing’s satellite-guided Joint Direct Attack Munition, which the Saudis first bought in 2008.

    The Saudis would buy about 72 UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters, 70 AH-64D Longbow Apaches and 36 AH-6 Little Bird choppers, the official said. The Longbow is the U.S. Army’s premier anti-tank helicopter, capable of firing laser-guided or all-weather radar- guided air-to-ground Hellfire missiles...


  • #2
    Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

    Look, man... defense manufacturing is all we have left... because it is one of the most sheltered domestic industries... just give this one too us!

    (I jest, of course. But how can we not applaud 'stimulus' like this that is externally funded, and boosts both manufacturing and exports? We need to sell the Saudis something for their oil... it's either this or paper financial instruments of dubious value... or a whole helluva lot of corn and wheat.)

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    • #3
      Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

      Will you be applauding if it is used against you?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

        What else is the House of Saud going to do with all those US-issued I.O.U.'s (aka "bonars") that they keep accumulating from the sale of oil?

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        • #5
          Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

          It also includes versions of Chicago-based Boeing’s satellite-guided Joint Direct Attack Munition, which the Saudis first bought in 2008.
          i was unaware that the saudis had satellites to provide the quidance. hmmm.....

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          • #6
            Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

            Originally posted by jk View Post
            i was unaware that the saudis had satellites to provide the quidance. hmmm.....
            Well, the GPS satellites are up there transmitting, regardless of who launched them. The only question is the export license for the military receiver, but obviously that's not a problem when this is part of an arms sale already.

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            • #7
              Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

              Originally posted by a warren View Post
              Will you be applauding if it is used against you?
              I've always wondered whether highly sophisticated US weaponry sold overseas might have a "kill-code" embedded somewhere in the circuitry.

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              • #8
                Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                Originally posted by jk
                i was unaware that the saudis had satellites to provide the quidance. hmmm.....
                These days, there are lots of options besides the US' GPS system:

                China:
                http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/3996...unications.htm

                Russia:
                http://www.digitaltrends.com/interna...ps-satellites/

                Europe:
                http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2353617,00.asp

                India:
                http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/In...ystem_999.html

                Japan:
                http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...satellite.html

                Israel:
                http://www.milsatmagazine.com/cgi-bi...ber=1142246531

                No doubt there are others.

                More interestingly - http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/76xx/doc7...paceLaunch.pdf

                Worldwide launch demand.PNG

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                • #9
                  Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                  Originally posted by jpatter666 View Post
                  I've always wondered whether highly sophisticated US weaponry sold overseas might have a "kill-code" embedded somewhere in the circuitry.

                  It's been years since I looked, but the US GPS is owned and controlled by the military, and they have the ability to reduce accuracy or introduce error into the publicly available signal. As I recall there were two data streams available - one for the public, which was less accurate, and one for military use, encrypted and highly accurate.

                  Our interest at the time was transit applications like Intelligent Vehicle Highway Systems and rail systems. The public GPS data were not quite good enough to tell which lane a car was in or which track a train was on. Further, if the pentagon decided to suddenly deny accuracy in the public signal for an exercise or actual war, cars and trains might wreck if they were GPS controlled.

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                  • #10
                    Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                    Well, since the weapon's software is probably closed source, that is entirely possible.

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                    • #11
                      Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                      Originally posted by TABIO
                      It's been years since I looked, but the US GPS is owned and controlled by the military, and they have the ability to reduce accuracy or introduce error into the publicly available signal. As I recall there were two data streams available - one for the public, which was less accurate, and one for military use, encrypted and highly accurate.

                      Our interest at the time was transit applications like Intelligent Vehicle Highway Systems and rail systems. The public GPS data were not quite good enough to tell which lane a car was in or which track a train was on. Further, if the pentagon decided to suddenly deny accuracy in the public signal for an exercise or actual war, cars and trains might wreck if they were GPS controlled.
                      All of the above is true.

                      However, the military channel - to my completely outsider's understanding - almost certainly operates just by providing more decimal points for accuracy.

                      Greater accuracy can also be achieved simply via adding more directional data points: i.e. using 4 or more satellites to triangulate (quadrangulation? pentaculation?)

                      Originally posted by jheis
                      Well, since the weapon's software is probably closed source, that is entirely possible.
                      Far more likely the US military would simply encode the GPS streams in case of war...

                      Any 'kill' signal sent could be blocked; similarly since the GPS signals are primarily just identifier points (satellite reference w/ sat location and timing signal), you could as easily completely enclose the missile in some type of signal dampening, then route in GPS signals from some other source via a software translator.

                      Or in more concrete terms, take a set of alternate GPS system signals, convert to the point, then reconvert to GPS system satellite references and pipe those faked signal streams into the input.

                      It would mean strapping a $2000 laptop to the multimillion dollar missile, but if its stupid and it works, it ain't stupid.

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                      • #12
                        Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                        Originally posted by fallout View Post
                        What else is the House of Saud going to do with all those US-issued I.O.U.'s (aka "bonars") that they keep accumulating from the sale of oil?
                        Ummmmm, lend them back to the U.S. for a 2% rate of return, just like China. They shouldn't be redeeming them for anything tangible.

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                        • #13
                          Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                          Originally posted by c1ue View Post
                          All of the above is true.

                          However, the military channel - to my completely outsider's understanding - almost certainly operates just by providing more decimal points for accuracy...
                          My understanding was slightly different. The pentagon is able to deny the public access while keeping its own GPS use fully accurate. Even more than deny public access, intentionally send poor nav data to public channels to disrupt threats using the public GPS signal, like c1ue's laptop-on-a-missile..

                          The JDAM sale is interesting, in that the US weapon probably uses the US military signal. I presume these guys have thought it through and know how to keep our missles accurate while disabling foriegn-sold military hardware.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                            i assume that the saudi forces are viewed as extensions of u.s. forces. thus we get the oil and we get an expanded military force courtesy of the saudis.

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                            • #15
                              Re: The Military-Industrial Complex...

                              This has everything to do with whatever triangular trade exists between the US and the Saudis and little to do with their military capabilities. When has the Saudi military ever been considered credible? In the past some of this enormously expensive 'cutting edge' hardware was never uncrated.

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