Religious Outlier

[SBell]

Re: Religious Outlier

Nor am I asking that you agree that any such BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's exist. I'm just asking what would be a suitable means for others to refer to said BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's when discussing their views with you.

What I bristle at is the sweeping generalization of the phrase "The elites of our day." Is the poster referring to just the BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's in Washington and Wallstreet as seems to be your understanding of the term? Or just the Democrat BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's? Or the Republican BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's? Or does the phrase also encompass the successful lawyer down the street who happens to be Jewish or the college professor who is an atheist and teaches evolution at the local university?

So to answer your question, if you're going to refer to elites when discussing views with me, please qualify the term and give it a bit more specificity, so we can move beyond labels and talk about the real issue which is corruption and lack of accountability among the elites as well as the plebes.

[Adeptus]

Re: Religious Outlier

i agree that 'do good, be good see good' is not in itself bliss, but I assure you that they have complete peace with no fear of the future.

Really? To what degree? Is it unwavering, or does it vary in intensity? When they sleep, where is their blissful state or their peace of mind? If one were to pull a gun to the head of their loved ones, would they remain completely fearless? What is the foundation of their supposed 'complete peace of mind'? The security of lots of money? What would happen if they lost it? Their health? What will happen when they eventually lose it (such is guaranteed to occur)? That they have others to give to? What will happen when one day they can no longer give for whatever reason (they are injured in an accident, they somehow lose all they have materially)?

So long as one's blissful state is dependant on anything external to themselves such as money, material possessions, other people (whether receivers or givers of things or emotions), or even temporary mental thoughts, hopes and imaginations, then such blissful state is not only not permanent, it is not steady and of quesitonable depth because the outer world is in constant flux.

In regards to fearlessness, again it can only be present it one has no attachments to material things (money, house, cars, bank accounts, honorary titles, etc), other people (family, friends), any emotional states (love, extacy, blissfulness itself, etc), their own body and their own life; for again where there is a dependancy on anything external to their consciousness, there is the eventual loss of it (nothing lasts forever), and the mere thought of losing such a thing is a degree of fear itself even if only a fleeting thought and even if they are 'mature' enough to not express that outwardly for the world to see. Have you actually asked them if they can still experience any degree of fear, or any degree of blissful lower than their highest state? When you say they have complete peace of mind, how do they define it, and does it change over time? Until you ask, it can only remain an assumption. Lastly there is also instinctual fear, the type tied to survival instinct. Would such a person not experience fear in the sudden presence of a car speeding towards them, or would their mind remain in unwavering equinimity while they dodge it in complete focus and mental alertness?

Lastly, "complete peace of mind" to me can only be so if it remains so indefinitely, otherwise it is not complete or absolute in any way. Only a mind empty of all thoughts can be in complete peace. Is that their constant state of mind? Or is merely that they do not think of the future? Or that they think of the future but either choose not to worry to any great degree or contemplate any concerns and conclude there is nothing to fear (for now) given their current life circumstances? Or is it because they are permanently living in the 'now' and never think of the future?

It is a little rare to find human beings who experience and even posses such exceptional degrees of certain virtues most of the time, it is a quantum leap and another matter all together when ALL such virtuous (and many more) exist in a single man where they are completely and without exception unwavering in any form (depth/quality and logevity).

In no way am I saying that the virtuous people you know are not wonderful and even great men, or that others shouldn't look up to them in many ways, all I am saying is I would be skeptical as to the degree to which they are great. :-)

Adeptus

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Religious Outlier

So to answer your question, if you're going to refer to elites when discussing views with me, please qualify the term and give it a bit more specificity, so we can move beyond labels and talk about the real issue which is corruption and lack of accountability among the elites as well as the plebes.

Fair enough.

I was hoping that my phrase "Bunch Of Amoral Psychopathic Lying Greedy Power Hungry B*st*rds With Way Too Much Influence Making A Big Steaming Mess Of Things" would provide a bit more specificity.

I agree that there is always some corruption and lack of accountability at all levels of society. I agree that it is often the most elite individuals who provide the most wonderful and valuable service to humanity.

I suspect however that we disagree on whether "the real issue" is this general corruption and lack of accountability. In my view, that is an issue, but not the singular real issue.

Another issue, in my view though apparently not yours, is that there are a few particularly powerful families and groups who have been inflicting particularly grave damage on our civilization for centuries now. If we differ in our views on the very existence of such powerful but harmful entities, then that is not just a matter of defining words for clarity. That is a matter of substantive disagreement.

Such disagreement would not surprise me. It is a matter on which honest men can reasonably differ.

A third issue in my view, the flip side of the second one I just gave, is the general moral, spiritual and intellectual weakness of many humans, which renders them weak and susceptible to the dastardly influence of these few particularly powerful families and groups. Even generally honest and responsible individuals can too easily be sold a fraudulent "bill of goods" by those powerful harmful few.

Most human instincts are tuned for life in small tribes, not in civilizations of billions of people. This makes us game for a vast assortment of insidious propaganda and "programming" that is not to our mutual advantage.

P.S. -- These dastardly few are not just on Wall St or in Washington, nor of any particular party or religion. The ones I am aware of have their roots in Western Civilization, but that's likely because I know so little of Islam, China, India, or Africa civilizations.

[SBell]

Re: Religious Outlier

Fair enough.

I was hoping that my phrase "Bunch Of Amoral Psychopathic Lying Greedy Power Hungry B*st*rds With Way Too Much Influence Making A Big Steaming Mess Of Things" would provide a bit more specificity.

Actually I found "Bunch Of Amoral Psychopathic Lying Greedy Power Hungry B*st*rds With Way Too Much Influence Making A Big Steaming Mess Of Things" to be specific enough and was commenting that RebbePete's terminology wasn't specific enough. Truth be told I think we are more in agreement than you might believe as I wouldn't take issue with any of the statements in your response. And to end on a note of levity, my favorite definition of "elite" comes from the urban dictionary which defines elite as "not an as$hat." I think we are probably both in agreement that there are far too many as$hats in power today.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Religious Outlier

was commenting that RebbePete's terminology wasn't specific enough

That makes sense. Thanks.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Religious Outlier

Really? To what degree? Is it unwavering, or does it vary in intensity? When they sleep, where is their blissful state or their peace of mind? If one were to pull a gun to the head of their loved ones, would they remain completely fearless? What is the foundation of their supposed 'complete peace of mind'? The security of lots of money? What would happen if they lost it? Their health? What will happen when they eventually lose it (such is guaranteed to occur)? That they have others to give to? What will happen when one day they can no longer give for whatever reason (they are injured in an accident, they somehow lose all they have materially)?

So long as one's blissful state is dependant on anything external to themselves such as money, material possessions, other people (whether receivers or givers of things or emotions), or even temporary mental thoughts, hopes and imaginations, then such blissful state is not only not permanent, it is not steady and of quesitonable depth because the outer world is in constant flux.

In regards to fearlessness, again it can only be present it one has no attachments to material things (money, house, cars, bank accounts, honorary titles, etc), other people (family, friends), any emotional states (love, extacy, blissfulness itself, etc), their own body and their own life; for again where there is a dependancy on anything external to their consciousness, there is the eventual loss of it (nothing lasts forever), and the mere thought of losing such a thing is a degree of fear itself even if only a fleeting thought and even if they are 'mature' enough to not express that outwardly for the world to see. Have you actually asked them if they can still experience any degree of fear, or any degree of blissful lower than their highest state? When you say they have complete peace of mind, how do they define it, and does it change over time? Until you ask, it can only remain an assumption. Lastly there is also instinctual fear, the type tied to survival instinct. Would such a person not experience fear in the sudden presence of a car speeding towards them, or would their mind remain in unwavering equinimity while they dodge it in complete focus and mental alertness?

Lastly, "complete peace of mind" to me can only be so if it remains so indefinitely, otherwise it is not complete or absolute in any way. Only a mind empty of all thoughts can be in complete peace. Is that their constant state of mind? Or is merely that they do not think of the future? Or that they think of the future but either choose not to worry to any great degree or contemplate any concerns and conclude there is nothing to fear (for now) given their current life circumstances? Or is it because they are permanently living in the 'now' and never think of the future?

It is a little rare to find human beings who experience and even posses such exceptional degrees of certain virtues most of the time, it is a quantum leap and another matter all together when ALL such virtuous (and many more) exist in a single man where they are completely and without exception unwavering in any form (depth/quality and logevity).

In no way am I saying that the virtuous people you know are not wonderful and even great men, or that others shouldn't look up to them in many ways, all I am saying is I would be skeptical as to the degree to which they are great. :-)

Adeptus

Adeptus, we will probably just have to agree to disagree. I have complete peace in my life, even through my late wife's long sickness and the last 4 months of her life after she develped lung cancer. We had been together 46 years, having gone steady since 9 days after her 14th birthday. I now have a new wife that the Lord found for me and I still have complete peace and I know many others that do also. I pray you do.

Jim

[cindykimlisa]

Re: Religious Outlier

This OT is the “elite religion” of “religious” Alan, Ben and Goldman

Scripture References to Usury, Interest

And The Poor

(All references are from the New King James Bible)
25 " If you lend money to any of My people who are poor among you, you shall not be like a moneylender to him; you shall not charge him interest.
26 "If you ever take your neighbor's garment as a pledge, you shall return it to him before the sun goes down.
27 "For that is his only covering, it is his garment for his skin. What will he sleep in? And it will be that when he cries to Me, I will hear, for I am gracious. (Exodus 22:25-27)
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35 ' If one of your brethren becomes poor, and falls into poverty among you, then you shall help him, like a stranger or a sojourner, that he may live with you.
36 'Take no usury or interest from him; but fear your God, that your brother may live with you.
37 'You shall not lend him your money for usury, nor lend him your food at a profit. (Leviticus 25:35-37)
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19 " You shall not charge interest to your brother -- interest on money or food or anything that is lent out at interest.
20 "To a foreigner you may charge interest, but to your brother you shall not charge interest, that the LORD your God may bless you in all to which you set your hand in the land which you are entering to possess. (Deuteronomy 23:19,20)
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10 "I also, with my brethren and my servants, am lending them money and grain. Please, let us stop this usury!
11 "Restore now to them, even this day, their lands, their vineyards, their olive groves, and their houses, also a hundredth of the money and the grain, the new wine and the oil, that you have charged them." (Nehemiah 5:10,11)
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5 He who does not put out his money at usury, Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. (Psalm 15:5)
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8 One who increases his possessions by usury and extortion Gathers it for him who will pity the poor. (Proverbs 28:8)
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24:1 Behold, the LORD makes the earth empty and makes it waste, Distorts its surface And scatters abroad its inhabitants.
2 And it shall be: As with the people, so with the priest; As with the servant, so with his master; As with the maid, so with her mistress; As with the buyer, so with the seller; As with the lender, so with the borrower; As with the creditor, so with the debtor.
3 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the LORD has spoken this word. (Isaiah 24:1-3)
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10 Woe is me, my mother, That you have borne me, A man of strife and a man of contention to the whole earth! I have neither lent for interest, Nor have men lent to me for interest. Every one of them curses me. (Jeremiah 15:10)
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7 If he has not oppressed anyone, But has restored to the debtor his pledge; Has robbed no one by violence, But has given his bread to the hungry And covered the naked with clothing;
8 If he has not exacted usury Nor taken any increase, But has withdrawn his hand from iniquity And executed true judgment between man and man;
9 If he has walked in My statutes And kept My judgments faithfully -- He is just; He shall surely live!" Says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 18:7-9)
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13 If he has exacted usury Or taken increase -- Shall he then live? He shall not live! If he has done any of these abominations, He shall surely die; His blood shall be upon him. (Ezekiel 18:13)
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17 Who has withdrawn his hand from the poor And not received usury or increase, But has executed My judgments And walked in My statutes -- He shall not die for the iniquity of his father; He shall surely live! (Ezekiel 18:17)
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12 "In you they take bribes to shed blood; you take usury and increase; you have made profit from your neighbors by extortion, and have forgotten Me," says the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 22:12)
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Concerning the poor
Deut. 15:7. If there is a poor man among you, one of your brothers, in any of the towns of the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand to your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks.
Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.
Is. 58:66ff. Is this not the fast which I choose, to loosen the bonds of wickedness, to undo the bands of the yoke, and to let the oppressed go free, and break every yoke? Is it not to divide your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into the house; when you see the naked, to cover him, and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?
Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.
Prov. 22:9 He who is generous will be blessed, for he gives some of his food to the poor.
Jer. 22:16 "Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the LORD.
Deut. 15:10. You shall give generously to [your poor brother], and your heart shall not be grieved when you give to him, because for this thing the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in all your undertakings.
Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.
Jer. 7:5-7. "For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever."
Is. 58:10. "And if you give yourself to the hungry, and satisfy the desire of the afflicted, then your light will rise in darkness, and your gloom will become like midday. And the LORD will continually guide you, and satisfy your desire in scorched places, and give strength to your bones; and you will be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water whose waters do not fail."

Not serving the poor
Is. 10:1-3. "Woe to those who enact evil statutes, and to those who continually record unjust decisions, so as to deprive the needy of justice, and rob the poor of My people of their rights... Now what will you do in the day of punishment, and in the devastation which will come from afar?"
Ezek. 22:29,31. "The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and they have wronged the poor and needy and have oppressed the sojourner without justice... Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads," declares the Lord GOD.
Jer. 5:28f. "[The wicked] do not plead the cause, the cause of the orphan, that they may prosper; and they do not defend the rights of the poor. Shall I not punish these people?" declares the LORD. "On such a nation as this, shall I not avenge myself?"

Cindy

[mooncliff]

Re: Religious Outlier

Any common trait is likely to have, in the past, improved probability of survival (though this is not necessarily so in the future since all traits increase or decrease the probability of survival in context, both the context of Nature and the context of the social environment in which we have lived for millions of years).

I think religion can do important things like reduce anxiety, reduce social friction by making clear rules, increase social cohesion within a group.
We all want to have control over what happens, and we all want to promote what are, at least to us, at least in the short term, desirable outcomes.
We all try to interpret on the fly what is happening, and we often overinterpret, so we see signs in clouds and various parlor tricks to which not even the Greek gods would stoop.

We all want the world to be right and just, for things to be the way they should. That is why we spend so much time, effort, and money making and watching movies... directed dreams in which, usually, at the end, all is right with the world, at least in some fashion.

For most of human history, we had no way of feeling like we could control things except by ritual and magic.
Tutankhamun, Pharaoh, dead of malaria and genetic conditions. Nicholas, Czar of Russia, unable to control the clotting of blood in his own son.
A little more than a century ago, many doctors refused to believe in germs and did not wash their hands or instruments as they went from autopsies to maternity ward, and so many died. After they were convinced that bacteria exist, they did not believe that viruses did. It takes an enormous amount of wealth and education and intellectual discomfort and a willingness to change (or enough time for the old rigid ones to die off) to get to the stage where we can vaccinate instead of pray and wear talismans to ward off disease.
(Many doctors I know personally are waaaay out of date, so this is by no means a problem of the past.)

I have found no other way to increase the probability of desirable outcomes than unfailing empiricism. It in no way makes life bleak, but it does take a lot of time and patience and a willingness to read about something for 20 years before the answer comes. In the brief period when our understanding of the way the material world works is going exponential, it can be a profoundly emotionally satisfying, deeply spiritual way to live, although I suppose it may seem from the outside to be cold and barren. RNA interference, lethal mutagenesis, premature stop codons. Once you understand concepts like this, they are actually quite simple. I described this to my students as "Everything in biology is simple. However, it is a very long story. Each concept is simple, but there are many of them."

If you do not live in the US, you may be unfamiliar with the Jerry Lewis Muscular Dystrophy Labor Day Telethon. Mr. Lewis is, I think, one of the happiest who has ever lived. He has been in poor health for a long time, but every year, in early September, he starts planning for the next Telethon. He was so ill a few years back that his doctors refused to let him go on the show. There was much colorful language. After he went on, he came back and told his doctors, "See! They gave MORE money because I looked so bad!" "Don't you understand that if it weren't for the kids, I would have been gone a long time ago?"
The researchers now come to Mr. Lewis often and tell him things like, "We know the cause of 15% of the cases of muscular dystrophy. "Premature stop codon" (in the DNA coding for a critical muscle protein, there is an error in the genetic code, a misplaced sequence that indicates that the protein is complete and that synthesis should stop, thereby producing a useless fragment, the muscle cells stop functioning, and death soon follows). The researchers now think they can turn on another version of the gene, and the condition will be manageable, and perhaps one day merely be a nuisance.
He has found his purpose in life. He crosses swords with Death and stays his hand! At least for a moment.

We are all trying to accomplish the same ends; we are arguing about the means.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ational-grip-o

[don]

Re: Religious Outlier

A Church of England vicar who conducted hundreds of sham marriages in an immigration fraud was jailed today for four years.

The Rev Alex Brown married hundreds of African men desperate to obtain permanent residency rights in Britain, to eastern European women who were paid up to £3,000.
The fraud was detected because of the extraordinary surge in the number of marriages at the church of St Peter and St Paul in St Leonards on Sea, East Sussex.
Brown presided over 383 marriages between July 2005 and July 2009, a 30-fold increase over the previous four years.

He was found guilty in July at Lewes crown court of conspiring to facilitate breaches of immigration laws, along with a solicitor, Michael Adelasoye, and Vladymyr Buchak, an illegal immigrant from Ukraine who recruited the brides.

Brown and Adelasoye both denied knowing the marriages were false, but at the trial jurors were told that some couples could not speak the same language, others produced rings that did not fit, and some applied to marry one person and then the following week applied to marry somebody else.

Brown was suspended from his duties by the church after his arrest.

The judge, Richard Hayward, also handed Brown a five-month sentence, to run concurrently, after he pleaded guilty to solemnising a marriage according to the rites of the Church of England without the banns being properly read.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/se...sham-marriages

[don]

Re: Religious Outlier

Men can see nothing around them that is not their own image. Everything speaks to them of themselves.

K.Marx