Religious Outlier

[BigBagel]

Re: Religious Outlier

If it were a tool to keep the masses down, it is a very poor tool, since wherever the true gospel of Jesus the Messiah has come to a land, people have done the most extraordinary things. They give up their own selfish comforts to help the poor, they work to overturn tyranny and bring freedom to the land, they bring corrupt government to task, and so on. The founding fathers of this country were propelled by economics, but also by their deep religious faith.

The elites of our day are anything but the friends of Christianity, rather its enemy. They mock it, they try to stamp it out, they try to keep it out of the public eye.

They will not succeed. The leaders of the churches are starting to realize that we've been had by both political parties. Once the pulpits begin thundering with condemnation for the current system, the fun will really start.

The left mocks religion. The right co opts religion, a much more effective tactic.

[GRG55]

Re: Religious Outlier

The religious rebirth imho is akin to a reaction, almost a natural reaction to the cultural marxist policies of the elites. When eastern europe was under communist control, people were highly religious, then as the left/cultural marxists were discredited and communism fell the peoples want and need to go to church vanished, so did the level of religiousness. Now as the cultural marxists are slowly trying to take apart traditional values and such, religious topics and influence are also increasing in eastern europe, like a reaction to more than organic religious feelings...

We're still in the Greenspan/Bernanke era of financial paganism. Faith in the economy and those allegedly responsible for it [the President, the Fed, the Treasury Secretary, etc.] continues to decline. The vast majority of people are uncomfortable having no faith in anything. Where will they turn?

I think it may be the same here in the states. As the culture, values, traditions, have been attacked by the cultural marxists there is a sort of reaction, the formation of the evangelical religious right. I wasn't alive 30-40-50 years ago but, from my info it seems as if the level of religiousness and religion in politics was not as high as it is now and the past 20 years.

I don't think much has changed vis a vis religion in the US political scene. Fifty years ago, during the 1960 election campaign, the religious matter of John Kennedy being Catholic was a more prominent issue than Obama being black, and Hillary being female, in the last election.

[SBell]

Re: Religious Outlier

RebbePete- I bristle every time I hear the term "elites" thrown around as an epithet. In it's simplest definition elite means the 'best or most skilled members of a group.' Over the past hundred years attacking and eventually executing the 'intellectuals' or 'elites' has been the preferred tactic of Fascists, Dictators, and Communists to ensure there is no one around that could oppose their rule. By definition the 'leaders of the churches' you speak of are elites since they hold a privileged position of power and influence supposedly gained by being the best or most knowledgeable (or most religious) in their group. So if you are truly against "the elites of our day" you need to rail against the church leaders too.

I'm not calling anyone here a communist or dictator, I just think using the term elites as an epithet starts us down a slippery slope.

[ThePythonicCow]

Re: Religious Outlier

RebbePete- I bristle every time I hear the term "elites" thrown around as an epithet. In it's simplest definition elite means the 'best or most skilled members of a group.'

Often times when I see people bristle over a certain word, it is because they are insisting on using a particular definition for that word ... that just doesn't happen to be the definition intended. As you well know, most words have multiple, sometimes conflicting, meanings, often shifting and changing with time and circumstance.

If you were discussing world affairs with someone who thought that there was a Bunch Of Amoral Psychopathic Lying Greedy Power Hungry B*st*rds With Way Too Much Influence Making A Big Steaming Mess Of Things (BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's) what term would you suggest that person use to refer to said BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's when talking with you?

My reply is not to deny that the dangers you call out, of such BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT ideologues deliberately denigrating and destroying the honest and capable elites (which could be anyone with a High School diploma or who wore glasses, as in Cambodia under Pol Pot) who might pose a danger to their ultimate ascendancy to absolute tyranny.

Nor am I asking that you agree that any such BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's exist. I'm just asking what would be a suitable means for others to refer to said BOAPLGPHBWTMIMABSMOT's when discussing their views with you.

[GRG55]

Re: Religious Outlier

RebbePete- I bristle every time I hear the term "elites" thrown around as an epithet. In it's simplest definition elite means the 'best or most skilled members of a group.' Over the past hundred years attacking and eventually executing the 'intellectuals' or 'elites' has been the preferred tactic of Fascists, Dictators, and Communists to ensure there is no one around that could oppose their rule. By definition the 'leaders of the churches' you speak of are elites since they hold a privileged position of power and influence supposedly gained by being the best or most knowledgeable (or most religious) in their group. So if you are truly against "the elites of our day" you need to rail against the church leaders too.

I'm not calling anyone here a communist or dictator, I just think using the term elites as an epithet starts us down a slippery slope.

Perhaps.

But it is the increasingly prevalent and tolerated abuse of privilege by those in positions of power and influence [the elites] that distresses, and has resulted in the word elite being transformed from a description of respect or high status, to an epithet. Whether it's covering up the antics of priests in the Catholic Church, the denials of philandering Presidential candidates [or Presidents for that matter], the reaction of Wall Street's finest in the face of the catastrophe they helped to create, or the hubris of auto executives flying in private jets to plead for public assistance, it is this behaviour - and more - that is bringing well deserved disrepute and disrespect down upon our "best and most skilled" leaders and influence peddlers...

[jk]

Re: Religious Outlier

Perhaps.

But it is the increasingly prevalent and tolerated abuse of privilege by those in positions of power and influence [the elites] that distresses, and has resulted in the word elite being transformed from a description of respect or high status, to an epithet. Whether it's covering up the antics of priests in the Catholic Church, the denials of philandering Presidential candidates [or Presidents for that matter], the reaction of Wall Street's finest in the face of the catastrophe they helped to create, or the hubris of auto executives flying in private jets to plead for public assistance, it is this behaviour - and more - that is bringing well deserved disrepute and disrespect down upon our "best and most skilled" leaders and influence peddlers...

when you've become WAAAY too old to say "don't trust anyone over 30," you can always say you hate "the elites." this is the latest transformation of baby boomer ideological purity on BOTH the left and right. we're still crusadin', whether as libertarians or social democrats.

[SBell]

Re: Religious Outlier

Perhaps.

But it is the increasingly prevalent and tolerated abuse of privilege by those in positions of power and influence [the elites] that distresses, and has resulted in the word elite being transformed from a description of respect or high status, to an epithet. Whether it's covering up the antics of priests in the Catholic Church, the denials of philandering Presidential candidates [or Presidents for that matter], the reaction of Wall Street's finest in the face of the catastrophe they helped to create, or the hubris of auto executives flying in private jets to plead for public assistance, it is this behaviour - and more - that is bringing well deserved disrepute and disrespect down upon our "best and most skilled" leaders and influence peddlers...

Well said, and I don't think there is anything in your response I would disagree with. But I do think in politically charged times like these with people being easily swayed by a biased media, a crusade against the 'elites' can quickly spread to become a persecution of anyone with a perceived elite status such as the local business leader or college professor, or even the guy down the street who went to a better college than you and who's had a few more breaks than you and has a bigger house and more money. To me the crusade should be against the exact things you describe, abuse of power and the lack of accountability, and not against the all too broad group of "elites."

*I think we would both agree that we definitely do not have our best and most skilled leading us in business or politics at the moment, unless we want to give them credit for being the best and most skilled criminals....

[Chris]

Re: Religious Outlier

Another data point in the case for American Exceptionalism.

I concur. Unfortunately, your rulers are doing their best to ruin it.

Those interested in this topic might find the writings of this man educational.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Religious Outlier

The giant bears (in East Sooke, BC) that walk by my house on two legs, just like human-beings, indicate to me plenty about how the universe works: Everything has evolved.

When I was at Victoria General Hospital earlier this summer having holes drilled into my head in a brain-drain surgery, I rejected God from the moment I entered the surgery to the moment that I woke-up. Evolution is my faith, and the bears walking around my cabin on two-legs prove it to me: Everything is connected to everything in this universe by evolution. Nothing dies, and everything is re-cycled.

[Adeptus]

Re: Religious Outlier

Gallup surveyed people in more than 100 countries in 2009 and found that religiosity was highly correlated to poverty. Richer countries in general are less religious.

So what? I am of the believe that on average the richer the country, and the more "evolved" (*laugh*) its population, the greater the number and severity of mental disorders and levels of UN-happiness they have. Show me a chart that proves otherwise!

Remember the old saying, "money can not buy happiness"... at best, it only buys temporary pleasures and a longer life where both more temporary pleasures but also more suffering (of all kinds) also takes place. In the end, such people tend to die in either mental or physical agony and full of fear in their eyes, not truly knowing what will happen to them after their eyes shut.

To spend an entire life on this Earth, yet depart never understanding with any real conviction why you truly came to be in the first place, is the ultimate waste of time!

Such Western "intellectual" studies and statistics are highly laughable primarily because the unwritten but understood concluding and foundational philosophy which defines 'success' (in life) couldn't be more flawed. In the same way that richness does NOT equal happiness, neither does poverty equal to unhappiness ! Although neither statement can be absolutelly true at all levels of meaning. Unquestionably the starving, shivering and illiterate man wasting away in the street corner can no doubt be made far happier with money to raise himself to levels of comfort and physical satisfaction; however, there comes a point where once all the physical needs (NOT the wants) are satisfied, the Western assumption (richness=happiness) completely breaks down. This is where I pitty those who actually believe they are better off because they belong to or were raised in a culture of such 'rich' western countries. (FYI, I was raised in the West and live here still, but am under no such delusions).

Western countries may be rich in physical terms, but they are dead last in spiritual richness and mental peace (an integral part of true happiness). If you are ever lucky enough to travel through India, you will be shocked by how dirty and chaotic the external life there is ... but if you are able to put aside prejudice and judgement long enough, you may also be fortunate enough to meet some of the most blissful human beings who possess the cleanest and clearest minds on this Earth (granted these are by far the exception, not the rule - but good luck finding such persons in the West!).

In the end my friends, neither fiat, nor gold, neither degrees or certifications, nor honorary titles or loved ones can be taken with you - which begs the question - are we truly focused on what ultimately matters? Don't be so afraid or so proud to investigate the deepest questions a human can ask - I assure you of one thing, the answers can not be found in intellectual thesis nor statistical charts.

Money is but a tool to buy us some temporary comfort and time that is hopefuly used to investigate and realize what really matters. Accumulating vast sums, or spending all our time seeking endless pleasures or countless varieties of experiences, or filling our minds with endless and incomplete knowledge, or attempting to see the entire world, or persuing maximum entertainment or climbing ladders of social recognition; or for that matter even just saving enough to live a 'normal' life with family and friends, IMHO entirely misses the point - but to each his own. "Live and let live; and reap what you sow"
Adeptus

[jiimbergin]

Re: Religious Outlier

To spend an entire life on this Earth, yet depart never understanding with any real conviction why you truly came to be in the first place, is the ultimate waste of time!



Western countries may be rich in physical terms, but they are dead last in spiritual richness. If you are ever lucky enough to travel through India, you will be shocked by how dirty and chaotic the external life there is ... but if you are able to put aside prejudice and judgement long enough, you may also be fortunate enough to meet some of the most blissful human beings who possess the cleanest and clearest minds on this Earth (granted these are by far the exception, not the rule - but good luck finding such persons in the West!).
Adeptus

Adeptus, although I agree with much of what you said, there is one point with which I disagree. I know many very blissful human beings right where I live here in Western NC. Some have almost no physical possessions, but others have great riches who have found great peace and who give much of their wealth and time to others.

jim

[Starving Steve]

Re: Religious Outlier

On the subject of faith and God and religion, especially the Catholic Church, we have the strange dis-appearance of Bernie Ward, a strong Catholic, and yet an out-spoken critic of the Catholic Church and critic of the religious-rightwing in America. Bernie was "the lion of liberalism in America", and so he became on the radar-screen of the Bush Administration, the ultra-religious (wear religion on your sleeve) George Bush Jr, and his bunch from the South.

So what happened to Bernie Ward? Was he set-up by the U.S. Dept. of Justice for child-porn possession? The rightwing hated Bernie like poison.

Here is a link to follow the story: http://www.nndb.com/people/124/000111788/
or you can go to www.kgo.com and link to Bernie Ward from there. KGO is the ABC network's 50,000 watt radio station in San Francisco, and Bernie Ward hosted "God Talk" at night. He cause quite a stir among the Christian-right who hated him.

[housingcrashsurvivor]

Re: Religious Outlier

For an institution purporting to foster spiritual enlightenment, how oddly self-conscious of religion to take preference for rejection. Imagine the deeply seeded complex a banana must develop when I choose instead to eat that grape.

[Adeptus]

Re: Religious Outlier

Adeptus, although I agree with much of what you said, there is one point with which I disagree. I know many very blissful human beings right where I live here in Western NC. Some have almost no physical possessions, but others have great riches who have found great peace and who give much of their wealth and time to others.
jim

Jim, like all emotions and experiences, they come in varying degrees of intensity and longevity. As somebody else already alluded to in this thread, conceptual words such as "bliss" (in this case) will mean different things to different people.

Tell me, how many seconds or minutes can these people whom you know hold their highest state of blissful experience unbroken for?... and then further, ask yourself, can human beings possibly surpass such a degree (of depth) of blissfulness? If, yes, then how, for how long, to what depth, and by what means? (rhetorical questions). Unfortunately, 'do good, be good, see good' isn't ultimately good enough, because it doesn't result in the highest state of consciousness and "blissful" experience in a permanent unbroken state. Don't get me wrong, it is still 'good', even great, but it is not all we can be.

Adeptus.

[jiimbergin]

Re: Religious Outlier

Jim, like all emotions and experiences, they come in varying degrees of intensity and longevity. As somebody else already alluded to in this thread, conceptual words such as "bliss" (in this case) will mean different things to different people.

Tell me, how many seconds or minutes can these people whom you know hold their highest state of blissful experience unbroken for?... and then further, ask yourself, can human beings possibly surpass such a degree (of depth) of blissfulness? If, yes, then how, for how long, to what depth, and by what means? (rhetorical questions). Unfortunately, 'do good, be good, see good' isn't ultimately good enough, because it doesn't result in the highest state of consciousness and "blissful" experience in a permanent unbroken state. Don't get me wrong, it is still 'good', even great, but it is not all we can be.

Adeptus.

i agree that 'do good, be good see good' is not in itself bliss, but I assure you that they have complete peace with no fear of the future.