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  • Canadian Housing Question

    Housing bubble at precarious 30-year peak

    National Office | News Release
    Issue(s): Economy and economic indicators, Housing and homelessness
    Projects & Initiatives: Growing Gap
    August 31, 2010

    OTTAWA – For the first time in 30 years, a synchronized housing bubble has spread to six red-hot real estate markets in Canada, says a report by the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives (CCPA).

    Canada’s Housing Bubble: An Accident Waiting to Happen examines trends in house prices in Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Montreal and Ottawa between 1980 and 2010 and finds price increases in those cities are outside of a historic comfort level.

    On average, inflation-adjusted house prices in these cities have historically held stable at between $150,000 and $220,000 in today’s dollars, but current housing prices in all six major markets are now over $300,000, on average.

    “The bursting of housing bubbles is a rare event in Canada, but the steep rise in house prices in so many cities displays all the hallmarks of an accident waiting to happen,” says the report’s author David Macdonald, a CCPA research associate.
    Historical trends indicate Canada’s hottest six real estate markets are more unstable than a generation ago, especially after steep house price increases between 2002-07. Before 2000, house prices tended to hover within a narrow range of between 3 and 4 times provincial annual median income. Today, house prices are anywhere from 4.7 to 11.3 times the median income.

    “As house prices rise outside of their historical range they become much more susceptible to mortgage rate changes,” says Macdonald.

    “The hottest six real estate markets could be in for a correction at best or, at worst, a bubble burst. Rate setters at the big banks are in the driver’s seat now as mortgage rates inch up. They need to hit the brakes lightly.”

    Canada has only had three housing bubbles burst, twice in Vancouver and once in Toronto. The study simulates the conditions of the two most recent bubbles, as well as the 2006 housing market collapse in the U.S., to assess how bad a correction might be. It predicts homeowners in Edmonton and Montreal could be hardest hit, losing 38% to 34% respectively of their property value in under three years in a worst-case scenario. Vancouverites would be worst hit, in dollar value, losing almost $200,000.

    http://www.policyalternatives.ca/new...s-30-year-peak


    A look at Canada’s housing market

    Who might be in trouble and what can be done?

    by David Macdonald, Trish Hennessy
    National Office | Commentary and Fact Sheets
    Issue(s): Economy and economic indicators, Housing and homelessness
    Projects & Initiatives: Growing Gap
    August 31, 2010


    The Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives released a study showing that, for the first time in 30 years, six red-hot real estate markets are in a synchronized housing bubble. The Centre’s Trish Hennessy interviewed the study’s author, CCPA Research Associate David Macdonald, to learn more about the problem.

    Trish Hennessy (TH): We know the American housing market collapsed in the wake of the subprime mortgage crisis a few years ago but Canada's housing market has been viewed as relatively healthy. Your study on Canada's six hottest real estate markets indicates our housing market might not be as rosy as we think. What's your diagnosis?

    David Macdonald (DM): I think Canadians have come to expect that their houses will increase in value by 5% to 10% a year and the truth is, like the U.S., that kind of return on investment simply can't continue indefinitely. Record-low mortgage rates and deregulation of the Canadian housing market means that housing prices are getting far outside of their historical "comfort zone." My concern is that when we get outside of that zone, housing prices become much more volatile and can be affected quite dramatically by changes in mortgage rates.

    TH: Canadian housing prices may be out of their comfort zone, but is the problem worse in some cities than others?

    DM: Definitely. Edmonton, Montreal and Vancouver are particularly at risk. Sleepy housing markets like Edmonton and Montreal exploded around 2002, with prices rising from about 3 times the provincial median income to 4.5 times in less than a decade. The third threat — Vancouver — did not experience as big a percentage increase (housing prices there were sky high to begin with), but homeowners in that city may be poised to experience a much larger dollar loss if mortgage rates increase.

    TH: So, if I own a home in Edmonton, Montreal, or Vancouver how worried should I be?

    DM: I'd be pretty worried. The historical perspective suggests housing markets that went up the most have the most to lose. It is really mortgage rates that will define when housing prices start to fall and how quickly. Every housing bubble in Canada since 1980 has been burst when mortgage rates when up by more than 1% above their two-year average. We aren't close to that tipping point right now and we may stay safely below it in the short term — say the next 6 months to a year — but that doesn't mean that the situation is stable in the long run. On the bright side, those who owned a home before 2002-03 will still see a modest appreciation in the value of their home, even following a crash under the worst-case scenario. (Worst-case scenario being a widespread housing market collapse like what happened in the United States post-subprime mortgage fiasco). On the down side, homeowners who bought their house after 2002-03 are more at risk.

    TH: Many Canadians have bought a home -- and assumed hefty household debt -- with the notion that home ownership is a form of financial security; that if things go badly in the labour market or whatever, at least you have a house to sell as financial insurance. In fact, a lot of Canadians count on selling their home to ensure a good retirement. Are we right to think this way or is this a potentially dangerous game?

    DM: Owning a home certainly can be a useful means of forcing one to save and accumulate for retirement. What is shocking is how quickly Canadians assumed that housing prices would continue to increase at 5% or more a year. Instead of a place to live and raise a family, a house has become the latest investment craze. Just as Nortel was once seen as a sure winner that couldn't fail (and many an investor got a great shock there), the housing market craze is equally vulnerable to downturn. Unfortunately, Canadians are taking on far too much debt to get into the housing market now. I can only hope that smart policies are put in place quickly to let air out of housing bubble slowly -- otherwise, a lot of Canadians could get burned.

    TH: What can we do to stave off a major housing bubble burst?

    DM: First of all, the government, through CMHC, can slowly curtail the 35-year mortgages that it insures. Prior to 2006, the maximum amortization period was only 25 years and we should return to that level. Second, the banks have a big role to play. When — and if — the Bank of Canada starts to raise interest rates, the big banks need to maintain a slow and measured increase in their mortgage rates, even if it means a hit to their billion dollar profits. If the banks shock a precarious housing market with a large mortgage rate increase, Canadian homeowners will almost certainly shoulder a dramatic drop in average house prices. The pressing need for these changes to Canada’s housing policy should help to drive home the message that a house is where we live — it shouldn't be speculative investment.

    http://www.policyalternatives.ca/pub...housing-market


    24-page PDF Canada's Housing Bubble @ http://www.policyalternatives.ca/pub...housing-bubble

  • #2
    Re: Canadian Housing Question

    Canada is experiencing a bubble allright with median income to price ratios of about 4.0+ nationaly to well over 11.0+ in Vancouver.

    No worries though CMHC (read taxpayers) is there to save the day.

    For a picture of the pig see here.



    Who wants a $1M shackhouse when you can live like a king in Texas (think weather here a bit) next to TPC for $40K?


    See also:
    Personal Debt in Canada: The Ticking Time Bomb
    Last edited by LargoWinch; September 01, 2010, 06:46 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Canadian Housing Question

      Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
      Canada is experiencing a bubble allright with median income to price ratios of about 4.0+ nationaly to well over 11.0+ in Vancouver.

      No worries though CMHC (read taxpayers) is there to save the day.

      For a picture of the pig see here.



      Who wants a $1M shackhouse when you can live like a king in Texas (think weather here a bit) next to TPC for $40K?


      See also:
      Personal Debt in Canada: The Ticking Time Bomb


      Canada is still cheap. Median income to price ratios for major Chinese cities are at 20-30 times for a 1000 sq ft apt and still growing.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Canadian Housing Question

        Originally posted by touchring View Post
        Canada is still cheap. Median income to price ratios for major Chinese cities are at 20-30 times for a 1000 sq ft apt and still growing.
        Yes, but let's remember that in Canada most people actually plan to have someone living in the home...which is why they still need to meet some semblance of "affordability"...

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Canadian Housing Question

          Originally posted by touchring View Post
          Canada is still cheap. Median income to price ratios for major Chinese cities are at 20-30 times for a 1000 sq ft apt and still growing.
          Are you being sarcastic touchring? In any event here a few things to consider:

          a) No interest deduction in RE in Canada

          b) No 30-year fixed rate. Most mortgage are 5 year floating and/or fixed. You can get a 10-year fixed rate but at a huge premium say 8% vs. 1.95% for a 1year floating.

          c) Banks used to offer (maybe some still do) 40 year amortization and no money down (you get 5% back to pay for the required down payment on your mortgage).

          d) Increasing tax on RE transactions: Many underwater cities recently introduced RE transfert tax and provincial gov't introduced the HST.

          e) Economic/Fiscal environment continues to deteriorate

          f) Demographics not in favor of RE demand appreciation

          g) Shitty construction since at least 2001

          h) A nice house in the US (a comparable country in terms of culture etc.) is about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of same RE in Canada. This does not even take into consideration brutal weather in the winter in cities such as Montreal.

          I know I forget some more, but here you go.


          Q: Do you prefer a $1 million shackhouse in Vancouver or a $695K "ReDo it yourself rundown 1910 townhouse" in Toronto or say - I don't know - gold?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Canadian Housing Question

            Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
            Are you being sarcastic touchring? In any event here a few things to consider:

            a) No interest deduction in RE in Canada

            b) No 30-year fixed rate. Most mortgage are 5 year floating and/or fixed. You can get a 10-year fixed rate but at a huge premium say 8% vs. 1.95% for a 1year floating.

            c) Banks used to offer (maybe some still do) 40 year amortization and no money down (you get 5% back to pay for the required down payment on your mortgage).

            d) Increasing tax on RE transactions: Many underwater cities recently introduced RE transfert tax and provincial gov't introduced the HST.

            e) Economic/Fiscal environment continues to deteriorate

            f) Demographics not in favor of RE demand appreciation

            g) Shitty construction since at least 2001

            h) A nice house in the US (a comparable country in terms of culture etc.) is about 1/3 to 1/5 the cost of same RE in Canada. This does not even take into consideration brutal weather in the winter in cities such as Montreal.

            I know I forget some more, but here you go.


            Q: Do you prefer a $1 million shackhouse in Vancouver or a $695K "ReDo it yourself rundown 1910 townhouse" in Toronto or say - I don't know - gold?
            Historically Canadian real estate, from urban housing to farmland, has always been cheap compared to most international locations. It only looks "expensive" now because the global bubble is gradually bursting as it works its way around the world...from California to the Costa del Sol, Dublin to Dubai, it's over baby. The only holdout is the Pacific Rim...Sydney, Shanghai and, of course, Vancouver.

            I doubt Toronto is going to get hit too badly, simply because it's the FIRE capital of Canada...and as long as the government continues to support the bankers [and I see no end in sight to that], Toronto will be the last place in Canada to experience an outright collapse in real estate prices.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Canadian Housing Question

              I am having a hard time reconciling this

              Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
              b) No 30-year fixed rate. Most mortgage are 5 year floating and/or fixed. You can get a 10-year fixed rate but at a huge premium say 8% vs. 1.95% for a 1year floating.
              With this

              Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
              Canada is experiencing a bubble allright with median income to price ratios of about 4.0+ nationaly to well over 11.0+ in Vancouver.
              How is it arithmetically possible?

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Canadian Housing Question

                Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                How is it arithmetically possible?
                Rajiv, I am unsure to understand your question, but let me add the following:

                In Canada all loans have an interest rate which can be fixed for no more than 10 years. However, the vast majority of loans are the "5 year variable" kind. In the US, you do have the option to lock-in your rate for 30 years (although few did): this is simply not possible as per Canadian law. This thus expose all borrowers to interest rate risk unlike the US (again if you did lock-in for 30 years).

                Put it another way, Canadians in order lower their borrowing costs opted for very short loans ex.: 5 year variable at less than 2% (with no money down and 40 year amort.). I have seen advertisements for 1.49% for the first year on a 5 yr variable. This coupled with high valuation, increasing inflation and interest rates, as well as unemployment growth is a recipe for disaster.

                Does this answer your question?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Canadian Housing Question

                  Originally posted by GRG55 View Post
                  Historically Canadian real estate, from urban housing to farmland, has always been cheap compared to most international locations. It only looks "expensive" now because the global bubble is gradually bursting as it works its way around the world...from California to the Costa del Sol, Dublin to Dubai, it's over baby. The only holdout is the Pacific Rim...Sydney, Shanghai and, of course, Vancouver.

                  I doubt Toronto is going to get hit too badly, simply because it's the FIRE capital of Canada...and as long as the government continues to support the bankers [and I see no end in sight to that], Toronto will be the last place in Canada to experience an outright collapse in real estate prices.
                  I respectfully disagree GRG55.

                  The only metric worth a damn in RE, is the median household income to median house price.

                  Historically, this has been hovering around 2X-3X.


                  Today in Toronto, median household income is around $66K, while median house price is currently $360K, up $100K since only 2004, for a household income to median house price ratio of 5.45X.

                  Thus, I believe the Toronto market to be overvalued by at least 33% to 55%, especially the condo market.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Canadian Housing Question

                    Rajiv,

                    1) Almost nobody takes out long term mortgages. Essentially everyone goes for variable or 5-year fixed (which is currently at about 3.5-3.75%)
                    2) Rents are generally lower than buying in Vancouver, so a lot of people rent. I know people who make $250k-$1mm a year who rent in Vancouver becauase it makes no sense to buy.
                    3) There is a lot of drug money in Vancouver so there is some buying for money laundering purposes.
                    4) There are incentives for foreigners (mainly chinese) to attain residency in Canada in exchange for owning properties in excess of some amount (400k?), there there is some artifical demand there.
                    5) There was a big market bust in Vancouver like 20-25 years ago? So lots of people who bought in then made a lot of $ and can "move up the ladder" - those who are not in are priced out (see points 3 and 4 above).
                    6) In places that are not totally insane (ie, not vancouver), normal people can leverage up with 35 year amortizations and money from their parents.

                    Canadian RE is at train wreck waiting to happen. Shouldn't be as bad as the US though, since there is less supply (less overbuilding).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Canadian Housing Question

                      Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
                      Does this answer your question?
                      No

                      Let me clarify -- A five year loan to me means that the loan has to be paid back in its entireity in 5 years. I looked at Canadian interest rates (actually, interest rates are almost irrelevant if you have a 5 year term from a cash flow perspective)

                      Say I have a gross income of C$75,000 in Vancover. A ratio of income to price of 11 means say a house price ofC$825,000 - 20% down (means that I have at least C$165,000 saved) -- loan of C$660,000 -- Say at 3% fixed and a term of 5 years -- Say no property tax -- and no other taxes

                      I input my numbers and get a monthly payment of C$11,859.34

                      That is almost double my monthly income!!!

                      So what gives????

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Canadian Housing Question

                        The bulk of the price run up may have been on the backs of ver low down payment, insured, 30 and 40 year amortizations - 40 years "fixed" but the rate gets recalculated in 5 years. I guess the only thing fixed is the name of the bank that gets the profit.

                        from a late 2009 article:
                        ________________________________________
                        http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/10/22/BubbleWillBurst/
                        So long as borrowing requirements were tight, the percentage of loans that were securitized remained modest. But in 2007 the Harper government allowed the CMHC to dramatically change its rules: it dropped the down payment requirement to zero per cent and extended the amortization period to 40 years. In light of the mortgage meltdown in the U.S., Finance Minister Flaherty moderated those rules in August 2008 (it's now five per cent down and 35 years). But these are still relatively very loose requirements and securitization has taken off.

                        By the end of 2007 there were $138 billion in NHA securitized pools outstanding and guaranteed by CMHC --17.8 per cent of all outstanding mortgages. By June 30, 2009, that figure was $290 billion, a figure Lepoidevin says, "exceeds the total value of mortgages offered by CMHC in its 57 years of existence!" CMHC's stated goal was to guarantee $340 billion by the end of this year and is on track to reach $500 billion by the end of 2010. Total mortgage credit in Canada will grow by 12-14 per cent of GDP in 2009.
                        ________________________________
                        Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                        No

                        Let me clarify -- A five year loan to me means that the loan has to be paid back in its entireity in 5 years. I looked at Canadian interest rates (actually, interest rates are almost irrelevant if you have a 5 year term from a cash flow perspective)

                        Say I have a gross income of C$75,000 in Vancover. A ratio of income to price of 11 means say a house price ofC$825,000 - 20% down (means that I have at least C$165,000 saved) -- loan of C$660,000 -- Say at 3% fixed and a term of 5 years -- Say no property tax -- and no other taxes

                        I input my numbers and get a monthly payment of C$11,859.34

                        That is almost double my monthly income!!!

                        So what gives????

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Canadian Housing Question

                          Originally posted by LargoWinch View Post
                          Are you being sarcastic touchring? In any event here a few things to consider:

                          Sure, sarcasm, but it is also a fact, for as long as Vancouver real estate is cheap as compared to other Asian markets, hot money will continue pouring in.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Canadian Housing Question

                            Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                            No

                            Let me clarify -- A five year loan to me means that the loan has to be paid back in its entireity in 5 years. I looked at Canadian interest rates (actually, interest rates are almost irrelevant if you have a 5 year term from a cash flow perspective)

                            Say I have a gross income of C$75,000 in Vancover. A ratio of income to price of 11 means say a house price ofC$825,000 - 20% down (means that I have at least C$165,000 saved) -- loan of C$660,000 -- Say at 3% fixed and a term of 5 years -- Say no property tax -- and no other taxes

                            I input my numbers and get a monthly payment of C$11,859.34

                            That is almost double my monthly income!!!

                            So what gives????
                            As Spartacus is pointing out, Canadian mortgage rates are from 1 to 10 years (again the vast majority 5 years or less and the 10-year comes at a huge premium), however the loan amortization is calculated on a 30, 35 or 40 years basis.

                            Thus, this system entirely move the interest rate risk on the borrower instead of the lender as it is the case with a 30 year fixed loan in the US.

                            See for yourself here.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Canadian Housing Question

                              Originally posted by touchring View Post
                              Sure, sarcasm, but it is also a fact, for as long as Vancouver real estate is cheap as compared to other Asian markets, hot money will continue pouring in.
                              Respectfully disagree.

                              Chanos claimed when Charlie Rose interviewed him, and as I later anecdotally verified with some Torontonians of Chinese extraction that more money was flowing into Chinese real estate from Chinese expats (maybe via loans to Chinese-resident relatives) than was flowing out of China into foreign real estate.

                              Comment

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