NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

[flintlock]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

ejukashun is overatted.

[bobola]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Excellent thread..!!

What John Gatto describes is sad but true. Interesting comments he makes about home study kids being years ahead of their peers.

A former co-worker (late 30's in age) told me that books are boring after I told him that reading books is one of my interest. From what I could tell in our conversations, he gets all his info from either the TV, computer screen or his cell phone. He apparently reads nothing printed on paper beyond a menu.

[rdrees]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Is this for real? This post is so unbelievably offensive and ill-informed it's hard to believe it is meant seriously.

Blatant race baiting and long discredited notions of racial "purity" and/or racial "hierarchies" have no business on this board, either jokingly or seriously, in my opinion. Take your hate to the neo-Nazi websites.

[reggie]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

i like gatto. His heart is often in the right place, but he consistently misinterprets his personal experience with a social problem that has been studied more than any other and for which vast quantities of data are available.

The problem is quite simple: The vast majority of black people can never be educated, at least according to the ways known to the civilized world. The only schools that have ever demonstrated any significant increase in educational attainment have been enormously expensive. Black people require a high level of discipline that is not cheap. Society simply cannot afford to educate them the way gatto or any other liberal would like. It is not possible and has not occurred anywhere in the world to any significant degree.

This is a pressing matter as the country will cease being majority white within 20 years. Only white people have shown any tolerance of the various pathologies of black people, and this is primarily only due to relentless propaganda that instilled in many a sense of guilt over their plight. Orientals, arabs, mexicans, and all the other rest of the foreigners in this country couldn't care less what happens to them.

Gatto lived in a new york city that was mostly white with a lot of black people recently imported to the city from the south to feed the democratic machine. That city is gone, and with it you can already see the impact of the indifference of other groups.

wtf?

[aaron]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

It is very difficult to have an effective discourse on this subject without offending somebody. Perhaps if Serge said "African American Culture" it might come across differently?

Ironically, the most "racist" criticism I have ever heard was from my neighbors who were African diplomats. I guess it was OK since they were black, but they had little respect for their American counterparts, describing them in colorful terms that are not fit for print.

Obviously, the color of one's skin does not matter (even our president is black). However, the quality of one's up-bringing certainly matters a lot. Success in school requires a supportive home environment.

[MarkL]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

I see the same facts and draw a conclusion nearly opposite; it’s not the fault of universities. Business runs on an ever-faster pace of change, chasing the new most profitable market. Universities develop slowly, educating students who turn into teachers who prepare new grads.

It is the fault of the Universities that they're not keeping up with business's "ever-faster pace of change."

Having spent the last 30 years in tech I can confirm that reeducating yourself every 10 years is necessary to keep centered in the mainstream of employment. There are still a few people keeping Novell Networks alive which I did in the 80's, and there's still people employed in the Client-Server tech of the 90's. But I am infinitely more employable today because I've reeducated myself around Cloud-computing. University has never had the classes I needed when I needed re-education. If they had, they would've gotten my money. Classes and experts are a helluva lot easier than dragging yourself through it on your own!

The problem with our Universities is that they are stuck in 30 year, once-per-lifetime cycle times. This worked in the 50's. But now they need to re-architect themselves to accommodate 10 year cycle times. Industry simply moves faster!

Doctors and Dentists are required to take continuing education classes to keep up on the latest advances... thank goodness! Only capitalism requires it for the rest of us.

University should be a relationship that one has over ones entire career. Re-education at periods of unemployment should be standard operating procedure. The financial relationship with the university should consider the fact that when you need them the most, you will be able to afford it the least... much like insurance. The university should be partially paid by the companies that have immediate hiring needs. The university itself, should re-invent it's curriculum's every 10 years or less to adjust to what students needs in THIS 10 year cycle.

IMHO it's no coincidence that Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard. Back then it had already started. Harvard had little to offer him on the upcoming revolution and it was only due to a very forward thinking teacher that his high-school did. And since the invention of the PC the cycle times have even gotten faster.

And with the internet and globalization continuing to accelerate the pace of technology, Universities should plan on 5 year cycle times in the not so distant future.

[MarkL]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

A former co-worker (late 30's in age) told me that books are boring after I told him that reading books is one of my interest. From what I could tell in our conversations, he gets all his info from either the TV, computer screen or his cell phone. He apparently reads nothing printed on paper beyond a menu.

Books have substantially less bandwidth than video, and no interactivity/feedback loop which is part of the new educational programs. There is no ability to direct your education/attention to the sub-subjects that are most important to you (as you can with hyperlinks), no ability to share the educational experience with a fellow student across the campus or across the world, and books get out of date quickly in today's fast moving world.

I love reading and I love books. I cherish even the feel and smell that comes with my collection of antique books. But the younger generation is already seeing my love of them as old-fashioned and antiquated.

My love is irrelevant. Most Borders/B&N will be gone in 10 years just as your CD stores and Blockbusters are forever gone. Your friend in his late 30's is a canary.

For the iPad/YouTube generation I completely understand and agree... from an educational efficiency standpoint books are heavy, slow, out-of-date, and boring. And I'll die loving 'em.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

University should be a relationship that one has over ones entire career. Re-education at periods of unemployment should be standard operating procedure. The financial relationship with the university should consider the fact that when you need them the most, you will be able to afford it the least... much like insurance. The university should be partially paid by the companies that have immediate hiring needs.

That is an excellent idea.

[Ghent12]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Would an additional $100-200 billion in hard science research grants(nanotech, biotech, alternative energy, future transport, etc) have the potential to "save" US higher education, spark innovation, help create new industries, new businesses, and most importantly jobs?

What chance would an academic bailout have of achieving a reasonable return on investment?

Universities have been subsidized for a long time now. That is why they are so big and so expensive--and I would argue why they are so ineffective. The Academic-Industrial Complex is such an incompetent beast because it doesn't need to sell a valuable product. People will be able to go into any amount of debt in order to 'chase their dream' or whatever.

And what does the President want? He wants more indebted college graduates. Yet another tentacle of FIRE.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Books have substantially less bandwidth than video, and no interactivity/feedback loop which is part of the new educational programs. There is no ability to direct your education/attention to the sub-subjects that are most important to you (as you can with hyperlinks), no ability to share the educational experience with a fellow student across the campus or across the world, and books get out of date quickly in today's fast moving world.

I love reading and I love books. I cherish even the feel and smell that comes with my collection of antique books. But the younger generation is already seeing my love of them as old-fashioned and antiquated.

My love is irrelevant. Most Borders/B&N will be gone in 10 years just as your CD stores and Blockbusters are forever gone. Your friend in his late 30's is a canary.

For the iPad/YouTube generation I completely understand and agree... from an educational efficiency standpoint books are heavy, slow, out-of-date, and boring. And I'll die loving 'em.

I don't agree entirely. For me different media invoke different mindsets. For instance, I used to do detailed mechanical design using advanced 3D solid modeling CAD systems. Most of the time that was far and away the most effective and efficient way to design, but not always. At some points in the design process I turned off the ProE station and used pencil and paper to work things out with sketches, equations, and words together on a page. That media force a slower pace and a different thought process and gave better results in some circumstances. The act of sketching by hand fires neurons in a different way.

Books have certain advantage like that. Compared to watching video of a speaker, reading is much faster if the writing is good - I would bet the overall bandwidth is actually higher for transferring understanding from writer to reader, as measured at the reader’s end of the pipeline.

I have also come to appreciate ancient, well-accepted solutions. The best chairs and tables still have four legs and beer still tastes best out of a glass bottle. Good old paper books, well written and well indexed, will likely remain a top performing way to retrieve information even as new media take a strong position beside them.

Same thing for a teacher face-to-face with students when the teacher has been thinking about the subject in depth for 30 years and teaching it for 20 years. It will likely remain an excellent way to learn, despite the fact that method was how Socrates taught things to Plato 2500 years ago.

[MarkL]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Compared to watching video of a speaker, reading is much faster if the writing is good - I would bet the overall bandwidth is actually higher for transferring understanding from writer to reader, as measured at the reader’s end of the pipeline.

There's been study's on this, and interestingly enough this is true if you were born before 1960, and false if you were born after 1970. The TV (MTV?) generation can handle fast edits, and a combination of words and speech that is faster than the previous reading generations. The folks born in the 1960-1970 range are about equal. Google "Williams, J. R. Guidelines for the use of multimedia in instruction" for background.

Audio books tend to be read at about 150-200 words per minute with 70% comprehension. The average reader tends to read 200-300wpm with similar comprehension. Video w diagrams/pictures tends to go about 200wpm with 80% comprehension.

I think whether a "video of a speaker" is comparatively boring is generational. However as video-editing become as accessible and as common as word-editing the talking head will be considered a presentation of the past. Most videos will include pictures, diagrams, and even sub-videos to make their point, much like the news.

I have also come to appreciate ancient, well-accepted solutions. The best chairs and tables still have four legs and beer still tastes best out of a glass bottle. Good old paper books, well written and well indexed, will likely remain a top performing way to retrieve information even as new media take a strong position beside them.

On the few books I've downloaded Search is already proving useful as often I can often no longer remember WHICH book I read something in! And I'm even occasionally using Google Books Search to help me find passages in my physical book collection for that same reason.

I too have a natural tendency towards the familiar. But I'm fighting to keep up with the younger generation. I can already see that I will lose the battle at some point, but I want it to take longer for me than it did my parents.

[Serge_Tomiko]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

Is this for real? This post is so unbelievably offensive and ill-informed it's hard to believe it is meant seriously.

Blatant race baiting and long discredited notions of racial "purity" and/or racial "hierarchies" have no business on this board, either jokingly or seriously, in my opinion. Take your hate to the neo-Nazi websites.

I'd be happy to discuss which of the statements I made you consider incorrect. The best available evidence supports precisely what I described in the post and I will be happy to detail it to you. And for the record, I have studied educational policy within the New York metro area quite intensively.

I am very much aware of some schools that have made great strides in educating black people, but as I said, they are simply far too expensive to operate. And that is really the key. We are beyond the age of wishful thinking. Uncomfortable realities that may have been ignoring due personal ideological biases simply can no longer be ignored. Such is life.

[EricPhan]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

I'd be happy to discuss which of the statements I made you consider incorrect. The best available evidence supports precisely what I described in the post and I will be happy to detail it to you. And for the record, I have studied educational policy within the New York metro area quite intensively.

I am very much aware of some schools that have made great strides in educating black people, but as I said, they are simply far too expensive to operate. And that is really the key. We are beyond the age of wishful thinking. Uncomfortable realities that may have been ignoring due personal ideological biases simply can no longer be ignored. Such is life.

I agree with Serge. A century of standardized testing (whether IQ, SAT, GRE, AP, etc) has continually pointed to a one standard deviation performance gap between the white and black average. Intelligence is mostly genetic so this gap is not going to disappear anytime soon. It's also the reason why it's impossible for everyone to have a college degree.

HBD - human biodiversity - provides the why for this fact. It's ideological to hold that races are exactly the same despite living in different conditions for thousands of years and the undeniable, obvious differences in height and skin color.

[karim0028]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/op...r.html?_r=1&hp

This one hits close to home for me.......it's a personal pet peeve of mine.

University education used to offer a pretty good return on investment with the salary it "purchased" for the average degree and the average student.

But while higher education inflation has exploded in the past 2 decades, for non-technical/tangible skills degrees starting salaries have been largely stagnant.

It certainly looks like US higher educations is driving towards a wall at 100mph....especially with early indicators like law schools offering retroactive grade point average increases to make their graduates more competitive...like some sort of academic version of Orwell's Ministry of Truth in 1984.

People complain about the ethics of used car salesmen......but I have yet to hear much spoken or written in the negative yet about college recruiters/admissions/financial aid staff selling a product with a negative return on investment.

I'm not a big fan of bailouts, but "buy in" for them must be contagious.....I'm wondering if one of the next few bailouts meant to restart the US economic motors to get us out of the flat-spin we are in will include a massive higher education bailout....and whether it's not such a bad idea.

Would an additional $100-200 billion in hard science research grants(nanotech, biotech, alternative energy, future transport, etc) have the potential to "save" US higher education, spark innovation, help create new industries, new businesses, and most importantly jobs?

What chance would an academic bailout have of achieving a reasonable return on investment?

Or does the US possess a mass excess of unneeded academic capacity in much the same way it possesses a mass excess in retail commercial property?

Is this the US version of Saudi Arabia's dangerous glut of unemployable Islamic Studies graduates?

Does US higher education get hollowed out?

Will we see considerable numbers of closures and consolidations/mergers in higher education?

While I am a HUGE believer in personal responsibility and the importance of due diligence, I truly pity those who graduated with massive student debt burdens and carry them along with a mortgage on a home purchased between 2002-2007.

They are now sitting on both a devalued degree and home, but still responsible for paying full F.I.R.E. economy retail value.

To me, seeing a possible(or even pending?) implosion of US higher education is like seeing the "cycle of life" broken.

Is it simply a choice between letting the US higher education system implode(and letting the "market" sort out what should fill that space) or throwing it a big bailout to keep it afloat and praying it offers a way out(via a Manhattan/Apollo sized initiative focused on future industry/transportation/energy/etc) without actually reorganizing/fixing it's massive disconnects with it's many negative return on investment degree programs?


Can we afford to let higher education collapse, even if we can't afford to pay for it's bailout?

Isn't higher education analogous to planting crops in the Spring to be harvested in the late Summer early Fall to get us through Winter?

Wouldn't a collapse of higher education equate to a crop failure and related hunger and deprivation?

In no way do I think US higher education will collapse entirely.....but could it potentially contract enough(beyond just unnecessary overcapacity) to cause serious harm to our ability to get through Winter?


I'm no expert....I'm just increasingly concerned that not enough attention is being placed on where higher education sits in the post F.I.R.E. economy dialogue.

Just my 0.02c

If you or anyone else is in this predicament; massive student loans and an upside down house... Your best bet would be to skip the country and go work in another country..... You would have almost no future here with that kind of debt load.... I know several foreign students who are at least in the student debt portion, and they openly discuss going outside..... Get off the debt mill....

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: NYTimes article: Academic Bankruptcy

There's been study's on this, and interestingly enough this is true if you were born before 1960, and false if you were born after 1970. The TV (MTV?) generation can handle fast edits, and a combination of words and speech that is faster than the previous reading generations. The folks born in the 1960-1970 range are about equal. Google "Williams, J. R. Guidelines for the use of multimedia in instruction" for background.

Audio books tend to be read at about 150-200 words per minute with 70% comprehension. The average reader tends to read 200-300wpm with similar comprehension. Video w diagrams/pictures tends to go about 200wpm with 80% comprehension.

I think whether a "video of a speaker" is comparatively boring is generational. However as video-editing become as accessible and as common as word-editing the talking head will be considered a presentation of the past. Most videos will include pictures, diagrams, and even sub-videos to make their point, much like the news.



On the few books I've downloaded Search is already proving useful as often I can often no longer remember WHICH book I read something in! And I'm even occasionally using Google Books Search to help me find passages in my physical book collection for that same reason.

I too have a natural tendency towards the familiar. But I'm fighting to keep up with the younger generation. I can already see that I will lose the battle at some point, but I want it to take longer for me than it did my parents.

Nice set of study results, thanks.
It's a simple fact that I'm old.
We seem to have established the possibilty here that I am also a luddite!