Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

[Mega]

Deep drilling is in DEEP trouble &
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...askaoil13.html

Its got to come from somewhere!
Mike

[Starving Steve]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

For the bird-brains who think that solar power is the future, a new 1.7 watt per hour solar light doesn't even have enough energy in its solar cells to keep the 1.7 watt/hour lamp lit for a short summer night in Canada, and that is after a clear day with full sunshine. This is early August in Canada; so imagine what December is going to be like with solar power! IDIOTS!

I was in my neighbour's solar house. The solar house has a 360-degree solar exposure. Its stone floors start to get cold at 9PM in June, and that was on a clear day. Passive solar doesn't work in Canada, and solar-electric doesn't work in Canada. It is a joke!

Yes, solar would work better in a lower-latitude, but not much better. The bottomline is that whatever you gain in the day in a lower-latitude desert is still radiated OUT at night to deep space. The net-gain is poor.

Oil is the future. Heavy oil from the Alberta tar sands is the future. Atomic power is the future. Hydro-electric is the future. And natural gas is the future. That is the story, like it or not. The Obama Administration is out-of-touch with reality.

[touchring]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

look what the lack of electricity does to sharjah

http://gulfnews.com/news/gulf/uae/ge...inues-1.536123

Sharjah: A power outage that occurred at 11am on Tuesday continued throughout the day Wednesday, affecting dozens of homes and businesses.
The outage hit Industrial Areas 1, 3, and 6, as well as Hamriya and affected buildings, street lights and traffic signals.
A senior official at the Sharjah Electricity and Water Authority (Sewa) said the outage was caused by a problem with one of the main generators, and that they have started implementing the first phase of their emergency plan.
Families were seen throughout the day standing outside, trying to find refuge away from the sweltering heat that was building up inside their homes.
"Everyone is sitting in their cars because that is the only place where the air-conditioning works. I am with my children and it is very difficult for them to cope with the heat," said Ekram Al Riaz, a father of three, who lives in Industrial Area 1.
More than 120 buildings and establishments were affected by the power shortage, while the electricity supply continued to fluctuate during the day.
According to residents, the electricity returned on Tuesday night for a few hours but went off again yesterday.
"I am trying all my options and am considering staying in a hotel until the power returns back to normal. I have no idea what is going on and the authorities are not saying what the problem is or when it will be fixed," Riaz said.
Residents said the situation was terrible and that traffic congestion had built up in Industrial Area 1 as traffic lights did not work.
"The traffic police are working and trying to direct the cars, but it has not helped a lot and there is a lot of traffic backing up all the way from National Paints roundabout," a resident said.
Mohammad Shakir, a business man who works at Industrial Area 6, said that the electricity supply has been irregular for the past week. Shakir's employees were unable to take their afternoon breaks because of the problem and he has also been losing business because of the power shortage. According to Eisa Al Zarouni, director of the control section at Sewa, the power shortage occurred because the electricity supplied through the power lines was more than its capacity.
"The number of residential and commercial buildings is rising in Sharjah, and it is the national duty of residents to save the consumption of electricity in order to avoid such power outages from occurring," Al Zarouni said.
In times of power shortages, Sewa implements its emergency plan that consists of five phases.
"The first phase includes separating some of the load in the industrial areas, and technicians are working to fix the generator as quick as possible," Al Zarouni said, adding that Sewa has an efficient maintenance and improvement plan to deal with such emergency cases.

[gnk]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Oil is the future. Heavy oil from the Alberta tar sands is the future. Atomic power is the future. Hydro-electric is the future. And natural gas is the future. That is the story, like it or not. The Obama Administration is out-of-touch with reality.

Tar sands may be the future - but we have to face up to the fact that relying on them doesn't mean the future will look better than the present.

Getting unconventional oil from tar sands is essentially a mining operation. You have to dig up the earth and truck it for processing. Then you have to remove the oil from the sand using heat - lots of natural gas is burned in the process. It's an energy intensive endeavor that is a perfect example of the diminishing rate of return of many fossil fuels.

Contrast that with the first oil wells that gushed out of the ground conventional oil that needed much less refining than unconventional heavy oils. Most people hear the amount of recoverable oil in the tar sands and get complacent. They don't realize it's far from a panacea.

[thriftyandboringinohio]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

...Heavy oil from the Alberta tar sands is the future. Atomic power is the future....

I think Alberta should build a nuclear reactor right at the tar sands for the sole purpose of providing massive steam heat to process those heavy hydrocarbons into useable liquid fuels.
Seriously.
I've thought for some time it might merit consideration.

[Andreuccio]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Ekram Al Riaz, a father of three, who lives in Industrial Area 1

"Industrial Area 1". It sounds picturesque.

[ASH]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

I think Alberta should build a nuclear reactor right at the tar sands for the sole purpose of providing massive steam heat to process those heavy hydrocarbons into useable liquid fuels.
Seriously.
I've thought for some time it might merit consideration.

I would guess that, environmentally speaking, the nuclear approach is superior. I think it's a great idea, but I bet it isn't as cost-effective as burning natural gas. Perhaps the time it takes to permit and build a reactor is prohibitive, compared to the time frame in which developers of the oil sands want to be in production and realize profits?

[Rajiv]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

environmentally speaking, the nuclear approach is superior.

A greater problem is the treatment of waste water (that is contaminated with oil) and the rehabilitation of the mined land so that it becomes reusable as a plant and wildlife habitat. The steps required to begin the process of rehabbing the land and the water leads to additional energy and monetary cost -- which may render the tar sands to be far less promising.

Of course, the "denude,""rape," "pillage" and "desert" option is always available -- but that too has very dramatic long term costs -- except that the cost is transfered on to other parties. Not too different from what FIRE has already done.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Tar sand up-graded oil is not going to be cheap, nor is any oil drilled anywhere in the future going to be cheap. The days of cheap oil are long gone.

The beauty of the tar sands projects in Alberta is that the supply of tar is almost inexhaustible. And then we have Mexico's heavy oil, and heavy oil in other countries. Then, we have shale-oil in America, another almost inexhaustible resource. Then, we have deep-sea oil to be drilled off of Brazil, off of Egypt, off of the UK, off of Newfoundland, off of Saudi-Arabia, off of China, off of Vietnam, and in the Gulf of Mexico. Then add-on the offshore oil in the Arctic Ocean off of Alaska, and the supply of expensive oil will last a thousand years, or more.

This has to be good news for mankind. And Starving Steve owns some stock in BP, albeit at $58 per share. Plus mankind has atomic power, hydro-electric power, and natural gas coming out of everywhere on the planet. This is GREAT news for everyone, especially future generations of PEOPLE.

As far as bird habitat is concerned, let the rare birds get off of their duffs and relocate.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Correct. Atomic power should be used to heat the tar sands in Alberta. However, there is surplus natural gas at these tar sands sites, and nat gas is used now to heat tar sands, rather than the nat gas being flared-off.

Piping nat gas out of the tar sands is rather expensive in light of the low price that nat gas fetches on the commodity market. However, markets can correct the problem of too low a price for nat gas, especially with Bernanke running the Fed and Marc Carney running the Bank of Canada.

[Starving Steve]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Get in, "denude", "rape", "pillage", and "desert" sounds just fine to me. DO IT. Si, se puede hacerlo. !Horale! And send-in the NRA from Texas to take care of any bird-habitat over-population issues.

The welfare of humanity comes before the welfare of birds. The Obama bunch is way off-base, and anything but liberal.

[Rajiv]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

The welfare of humanity comes before the welfare of birds. The Obama bunch is way off-base, and anything but liberal.

Yes but mankind may not long survive the passage of the the birds and the other animals.

http://www.researchchannel.org/asx/s...logy_1300k.asx

[cjppjc]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

"Industrial Area 1". It sounds picturesque.

Lol

[Rajiv]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

The two stanford lectures by Jared Diamond below

http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/...D=571&rID=2375
http://www.researchchannel.org/prog/...D=2372&fID=345

[Starving Steve]

Re: Time to look at the Tar sands in Canada?

Dear Rajiv:

Past civilizations did not use their head. They did not use science and science-based engineering. Anything can be done if we use our brains. We have the technology to raise the standard of living of mankind, and preserving bird habitat in the tar sands does not improve the standard of living for mankind.

Some people might want habitat preservation at all cost, but those people have never had to experience poverty and starvation.

We have serious problems now with energy cost, so we have to get serious about real solutions which increase energy SUPPLY. Heavy oil up-grading from the tar sands is one solution which works well.

Listening to the lecture about past civilizations failing, I can not help but think of why Western Civilization has succeeded and prospered while other civilizations have dis-appeared. Some quick answers: 1.) We try to learn from our disasters, instead of blaming nature for its cycles of droughts and floods, periodic earthquakes, etc. For example: Compare the Colorado River water projects to the lack of water projects on the Indus River in Pakistan, and the one-dam only water project on the Nile River in Egypt. To me it is a crime to let the Indus River flow away unused into the sea, and the same observation with the Nile River. There should be hydro-electric dams everywhere along these rivers. 2.) We believe ( or used to believe ) in science and technology, not faith alone. Compare the progress in religious parts of the world to the progress in the Western World. Look for yourself, the truth here is quite apparent. For example, after the 1989 earthquake in San Francisco, we studied the failure of the SF-Oakland Bay Bridge, and we re-designed that bridge and rebuilt it. We studied liquifaction in the Marina District of SF, and we re-thought our building codes. Compare how other parts of the world handle natural disaster. This is the difference between why we prosper, and others fail.

After WWII, what did Manitobans do after they came back from the war? They built the Nelson River Water Project. They built the Pinawa Atomic Power Plant. They built the Red River Floodway around Winnipeg. They built the Winnipeg By-pass Highway. All this was done in just a matter of years, roughly 1946-1966.

And what did our generation of preservationists do after that? Nothing. But we attended rock concerts.

After WWII, what did Californians do after they came back from the war? They built the California Water Project and brought water to Southern California. They built several atomic power plants, starting with Valecitos in Fremont, California. They built the Bay Area Rapid Transit System (BART). They built the UC and California State Universities. All of this, again, in the years 1946-1966, roughly.

And what did our generation of pot-heads and preservationists do after that? We began the biggest orgy of speculation in real estate that the world has ever seen. And our crowning achievement, what was that? Proposition 13.