spotting anti-materialism

[cindykimlisa]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

Jim

Are you really sorry or just wasting my time reading your rant which by the way is doing exactly what you are accusing the other guy of doing.

Not everyone is like you or the other guy. I enjoy reading your rants and raves and often I do not agree with much of it but it yields perspective.

Cindy

[jiimbergin]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

Sorry for continuing off-topic here, but perhaps this is worthy of pursuing a bit further. don, you must read a lot on the web, that is my surmise, and one thing about iTulip is that it allows contributors to bring in a lot of material not only from the pure news media but also from other websites, e.g zerohedge as one. For people who do not have time to look at 25 or 50 other websites everyday or every other day, then this importing of items of interest by people such as you into one website, don, probably serves a useful purpose. Nevertheless, every click on something that I make takes some seconds, then one has to ferret out what is the post actually conveying--all of which is to me a waste of time. If one looks at most things on the web that contains articles, it is almost ubiquitous that the titling suggest the content.

Because I am the only one complaining, perhaps you should continue as you think is best. You strike me as a not-so-dumb guy, so why not express yourself more about content vs. continuation of the silliness in titling?

I agree completely. It is almost impossible to figure out what the subject on Don's threads is without clicking on them. And using search is very difficult in finding his threads.

jim

[lakedaemonian]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

If it wasn't for books.......we could easily squeeze into a small apartment...our beach house is only about 1000sq ft with lots of empty space for 2 adults, 2 children and 1 very big dog....anything gathering dust in our house(bar books) gets sold or donated.

We simply couldn't conceive living in an overly large home as I did growing up...with every person living in a different part of the house like strangers.

----------------

On the topic of anti-materialism, downsizing, spartan living I am KEENLY interested in seeing how it develops.

I think we will clearly have federal government support for it, but wonder how local/state government and corporate interests will support it?

I can't help but think about the rise of feminism, and how, in my opinion, it was hijacked in a way by government and corporate interests.

The rise of feminism merged well with local, state, federal, and corporate interests in the development of a significantly increased number of tax paying workers, sleight of hand in masking inflation and one income household quality of life/standard of living as well as much broader/deeper consumer spending...basically an exchange of Mom HAVING to work along with Dad in exchange for a few more shiny trinkets(not a fair trade in my opinion).....masking the growing financial NEED for Mom to work(outside the home as running a household can be a fulltime job) by defining a 2nd fulltime job(outside the home) as somehow freedom and enlightenment for women.....quite a cr@ppy tradeoff in my opinion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4MwbVf5OA

It was a win/win/win/win for local/state/fed/corporate interests....not a conspiracy in my opinion, but a VERY strong alignment of interests.

I can see the same hijacking(for lack of a better word) occurring on the bounce back down.......specifically at the Federal level.....but are interests as well aligned with "simplifying" as with "hijacked feminism"?

At the Fed level it will help mask deflating real incomes, an inability for existing owners to service the operating/ownership costs of McMansions that are the equivalent of a 5mpg SUV when factoring in future utility/maintenance/mortgage/insurance costs, and an inability of prospective future owners swamped with so much student debt as to make McMansion ownership prospects unachievable or even financially dangerous.

I can see the Feds pushing a new Levittown...smaller, cheaper, more energy efficient homes...which could tie in with SOME corporate interests....such as highly durable, highly energy efficient goods...if less is more, would demands for consumer goods QUALITY go up?

So I could see SOME corporate interests aligned in the simplicity tide going out, but far from ALL like the rising tide of feminism.

Also, I could see local/state interests losing big from a mass effort to downsize housing would further cripple the important local/state reliance on property taxes, unless a realignment of local/state taxation occurs to offset such a big shift in their revenue streams.

--------

It's the hijacking of feminism by aligned interests(my opinion) that leaves me with my "scepticism shields up" in regards to global warming/carbon footprint spanish inquisition efforts...I think interests are FAR more aligned there.

"Simplifying" I can more easily understand, relate to, and believe as I live it(ish) in a truly voluntary way.

I suspect "simplifying" will be merged with the next assault of global warming/carbon footprint 2.0 to mask declining real incomes and rising energy costs to make us "love" and "choose" making do with less.

Just my wacky .02c

[ASH]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

"Simplifying" I can more easily understand, relate to, and believe as I live it(ish) in a truly voluntary way.

I suspect "simplifying" will be merged with the next assault of global warming/carbon footprint 2.0 to mask declining real incomes and rising energy costs to make us "love" and "choose" making do with less.

Just my wacky .02c

I like your observation about big interests aligning with social trends, and perhaps reinforcing them. I think there's also an internal psychological interest to provide a narrative that "explains" material downsizing as something other than a personal defeat. To the extent that downsized material lifestyles and scarcer resources such as oil are baked in the cake, any narrative that makes the transition more tolerable is to be welcomed. If American society, and the rich world in general, are to be materially poorer, it will be best that the millions of souls not feel proportionally poorer. I have read that one tends to feel rich or poor relative to one's local community and those they think of as peers, so we need not necessarily perceive a society-wide climb down as impoverishment. The problem is that the upper tail of the income distribution won't be similarly obliged to downsize, and comparisons to the experiences and expectations of the past will provide a sore reference point.

I admire people such as yourself who are content living a relatively non-materialist lifestyle. For my part, I'm an inveterate materialist. I love material consumption and would like to be able to do more. That isn't to say that I live a particularly big lifestyle. Love of material things isn't incompatible with financial responsibility, but ultimately it is incompatible with sustainability. Until my material consumption is constrained by limitations of the natural world, it will be constrained by the limits of my own productivity, which (alas) are a good deal lower than my material desires. It's not that my main joy is found in material things, but rather that so long as "the things that matter" are right, materialism is the icing on the cake. I admire minimalists who are so by natural inclination because I think they are better suited to deal with the changes that are coming, and because they are inclined to choose a lifestyle that is more socially and environmentally responsible. I, on the other hand, am saddened by the prospect of paying higher taxes, coping with dearer resources, and living in a future with less margin for material consumption. Frankly, I internalized the illusion of boundless material prosperity which glimmered during the bubble years (which coincided with my 20's and early 30's), and in my heart, I want mine. I'm going to do just fine -- especially in a relative sense -- but my brain knows the oasis I glimpsed was an illusion that I'll only reach on a particularly lucky roll of the dice. I'd rather just be anti-materialist at heart; it's a more admired sentiment, and it makes for greater contentment.

[cjppjc]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

Keep up the good work Don.

[Starving Steve]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

A standard roll of silver dollars is twenty times nicer to own than one silver dollar. Bigger is always better. What else is there to know?

A Cadillac is always nicer to drive than a Toyota Echo. There is no comparison. Even in parking, the Cadillac has power- steering whilst the Echo has nothing. Try driving a stripped-down, basic Echo in the desert in summer.

Anyone want to discuss toilet paper and the concept of "small is beautiful" or "learning to live with less"? One-ply versus two-ply? World War I issue tp versus modern soft-issue tp?

Try flushing with 1.5 gallons versus 5.0 gallons. Do the experiment: How many flushes does it take, the old way versus the new way? How much water did you save in theory versus in reality?

Give your cat a choice: skim milk versus cream? Give your kid a choice: broccolli versus toys?

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

one of the itulip predictions has been that voluntary simplicity, downshifting, or whatever-you-want-to-call-getting-by-with-less, would become increasingly espoused as a value choice, a justification as well as explanation of the diminished american material lifestyle. thought i'd start a thread on spotting same.

long article in the ny times: "But Will It Make You Happy?"
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/bu...e&ref=homepage

Here is an article describing that shoppers are not buying if they can't get deals or good value. Not a dramatic article.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...ntent=My+Yahoo

Alice Splawn, 65 years old, and her husband have lost two-thirds of their family income since she was laid off as a business analyst in February. To cut costs, Ms. Splawn now sews her own clothing and hunts deer for dinner, and her budget has become even tighter in recent months, she said.

The Splawns, who moved into their Biwabik, Minn., home in January 2009, were able to partially renovate its unfinished basement until it became too costly to buy materials. Other costs, such as health insurance, had to come first, Ms. Splawn said. "We are afraid to finish," she said. "We have to be very careful with what we do and don't do as far as working on the house."

Kevin McBee, 24, of Winston-Salem, N.C., is paying off student loans while saving up for returning to school in September to boost his computer-design skills, in the hope of landing a job in computer graphics for videogames and film. He has started biking to work to cut transportation costs and eats most meals at home. "This is the zenith of my saving spree, so to speak," he said.

Folks like the Splawns and Mr. Mcbee are making business tough for Tom Wyatt, president of Old Navy, the bargain-priced apparel chain and Gap Inc.'s largest division by sales. The practice of drawing shoppers in with a few low-priced items, in the hopes they will buy higher-margin items once inside, isn't working anymore, he said.

"They come in to buy the value, but if the other product surrounding it is not the value they perceived it to be, they don't buy it," Mr. Wyatt said. "That halo is more difficult to get today."

[Jim Nickerson]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

http://finance.yahoo.com/focus-retir...uilding_wealth

From WSJ 8/16/10

The diminishing work prospects will require many older folks to make do with less—a discouraging outlook for firms hoping to sell them everything from restaurant meals to cars.

As of 2008, the latest data available, people aged 65 to 74 were spending 12.3% less than they did ten years earlier, in inflation-adjusted terms. They cut spending on cars and trucks by 46%, household furnishings by 35% and dining out by 27%. At the same time, they spent 75% more on health care and 131% more on health insurance.

The impact isn't limited to people on the verge of retiring. Younger people, too, will have to reduce consumption now to save enough money to get by in retirement. That's one reason Richard Berner, chief U.S. economist at Morgan Stanley in New York, estimates that even after the economy recovers, consumer spending will grow at an annual, inflation-adjusted rate of about 2% to 2.5% in the long term, compared to an average of 3.6% in the ten years leading up to the last recession.

[flintlock]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

As of 2008, the latest data available, people aged 65 to 74 were spending 12.3% less than they did ten years earlier, in inflation-adjusted terms. They cut spending on cars and trucks by 46%, household furnishings by 35% and dining out by 27%. At the same time, they spent 75% more on health care and 131% more on health insurance.

That really is it in a nutshell. Less spending on non essential items, a lot more on health care. Expect this to continue as more boomers hit the age they'll need more health care.

[BiscayneSunrise]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

A standard roll of silver dollars is twenty times nicer to own than one silver dollar. Bigger is always better. What else is there to know?

A Cadillac is always nicer to drive than a Toyota Echo. There is no comparison. Even in parking, the Cadillac has power- steering whilst the Echo has nothing. Try driving a stripped-down, basic Echo in the desert in summer.

Anyone want to discuss toilet paper and the concept of "small is beautiful" or "learning to live with less"? One-ply versus two-ply? World War I issue tp versus modern soft-issue tp?

Try flushing with 1.5 gallons versus 5.0 gallons. Do the experiment: How many flushes does it take, the old way versus the new way? How much water did you save in theory versus in reality?

Give your cat a choice: skim milk versus cream? Give your kid a choice: broccolli versus toys?

OK Steve, I'll take the bait. Your argument is flawed. You confuse quantity (size) with quality, i.e. skim vs. cream. One ply vs. 2 ply, etc.

Would you rather own a 5,000 square foot McMansion of shoddy construction in the exurbs or a 1000 sq. ft condo on the 30th floor of the best building in town with a view of a skyline?

A Cadillac Escalade may be nicer to drive than an Echo but certainly not nicer than a 911 or even a Miata. A yacht may be much more impressive when pulling up to the gas dock but I can assure you a jet ski is a whole hell of a lot more fun. A dinner party of 4 intimate friends or a 100 person block party?

Of course, smaller doesn't necessarily translate into anti materialist. Often times smaller is more expensive, more exquisite and more resource intensive: a flawless 2 c. diamond ring vs. a large gaudy bauble. A Tesla vs a Toyota Echo.

[jk]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

i'm reminded of a cartoon i once saw: someone kneeling by a bed in prayer, saying "i don't ask for much, but only the very best quality." i do think that one thread of an anti-materialist mindset will be fewer possessions, but indeed of higher quality. instead of 5 of something, you might have one very good one that costs as much as 2 of the cheaper variety. also, if you know you can't buy much, you might be a pickier shopper.

[Milton Kuo]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

i'm reminded of a cartoon i once saw: someone kneeling by a bed in prayer, saying "i don't ask for much, but only the very best quality." i do think that one thread of an anti-materialist mindset will be fewer possessions, but indeed of higher quality. instead of 5 of something, you might have one very good one that costs as much as 2 of the cheaper variety. also, if you know you can't buy much, you might be a pickier shopper.

I certainly hope you're right that the quality of goods purchased in the U.S. increases but I'm not optimistic. One thing that's been painfully clear to me since the mid 1990s is the ever-increasing shoddiness of things sold in the U.S. To make matters worse, these shoddy goods seem to squeeze out better products such that good products are no longer sold or are extremely difficult to find. I suspect most Americans nowadays wouldn't know the difference between a shoddy product and a high-quality product; most rely entirely upon brand names as a (poor) indicator of quality.

I've seen this effect in kitchen appliances, A/V equipment, computers, shoes, clothing, and even books (!). For all the talk about creating high-technology start-ups as a means of helping the U.S. recover from the housing and credit bubble crash, I'm of the belief that there exists an opportunity for manufacturing of many goods to return to the U.S. In addition to creating employment for average Americans, these companies could break the cycle of goods disposability which is so prevalent today--such as refrigerators that only last five (!) years. The U.S. would ultimately benefit from higher employment, quality goods at affordable though not necessarily cheap prices, less waste of natural resources, and the beginnings of a reindustrialization which the U.S. should consider of critical strategic value to national security.

[marvenger]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

evolving from material to digital consumption??

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/d...818-129er.html

[jk]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

evolving from material to digital consumption??

http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/d...818-129er.html

it works for media - entertainment, books. but he's 23 years old. let's see what this guy's life looks like when/if he ever has kids.

[c1ue]

Re: spotting anti-materialism

I certainly hope you're right that the quality of goods purchased in the U.S. increases but I'm not optimistic. One thing that's been painfully clear to me since the mid 1990s is the ever-increasing shoddiness of things sold in the U.S. To make matters worse, these shoddy goods seem to squeeze out better products such that good products are no longer sold or are extremely difficult to find. I suspect most Americans nowadays wouldn't know the difference between a shoddy product and a high-quality product; most rely entirely upon brand names as a (poor) indicator of quality.

I've seen this effect in kitchen appliances, A/V equipment, computers, shoes, clothing, and even books (!).

My friend the high end appliance repairer was just made the official repair person for a very high end condo-plex on the SF waterfront. According to him, most of the high end appliances are now made in Mexico, and 2 years after installation they start to fail. This dynamic is why he is now 'on the list' for this condoplex and spends at least 1 day a week full time there; the first tower of this site was completed 2 years ago and the appliances are failing left and right.