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CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

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  • #61
    Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

    Originally posted by Rajiv
    Taxes - destruction of the money supply aka making the rich not so rich.
    I've been looking more at the Modern Money Theory (MMT). Stephanie Kelton has an excellent explanation of MMT in a tutorial she gave in April 2010. The audio and slides for this tutorial can be found at Are There Spending Constraints on Governments Sovereign in their Currency?

    In her talk, and the follow-on questions from the audience, she explains fiat money, taxes, and the reasons for various national defaults (such as given in examples above).

    Her talk is well done. I recommend it.

    A transcript of a brief snippet of her tutorial can be found at Money and Coercion (Firedoglake).

    I find MMT to be quite persuasive. In my view it's a much clearer and more accurate way of explaining fiat money, taxes, sovereign debt, inflation and such matters than the various main stream (and even iTulip) views we commonly use.

    It's a quite different way of thinking of these matters than I usually see, and I have not done a very good job of presenting it so far. It's too easy to look at one of its conclusions from the perspective of our more orthodox economic theories and discard that conclusion as absurd or easily contradicted by history.

    Nations do not default for financial reasons on their debt, if that debt is issued in their own fiat currency and they have not fixed that currency's exchange rate to some other currency. There is exactly one example of a nation defaulting on its debt that was issued in its own floating exchange rate currency. That exception is Japan in 1942, which decided for political reasons to default on whatever debt it owed to its enemies, such as the United States and Russia, with which it was at war. Japan defaulted for political reasons, not out of any financial necessity.

    Of course, if you have some fixed rate exchange with someone else's currency or with a commodity such as gold, then you certainly can default, for want of enough of that external unit which it is beyond your ability to create without limit.

    Fiat money is issued by a political power as part of its means of controlling the people and resources of its territory. The state issues a currency and then demands, typically under threat of force, payment of various taxes in that currency from its citizens. This forces its citizens to earn and value the currency at least in order to pay their taxes. The state pays for goods and services in that (now sought after) currency by way of controlling some of the resources and labor of its territory. It prefers for a political reason to keep the value of that currency relatively stable over time. The political reason is that its citizens usually prefer their currency to remain roughly stable in value. Such a sovereign state issuing its own currency with no promise of fixed exchange for a commodity or some other currency uses credits in that currency as score keeping device. It has no operational need to ever borrow in its own currency and no operational risk of ever running out of its currency.
    Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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    • #62
      Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

      Kelton does a good job of what I have been trying to teach. However she does not go far enough on the social impacts of high taxation. The logical extension of MMT is that High tax rates will lead to a more income equality, while lower tax rates will lead to a higher Gini coefficient.

      Further, the only issue that remains is determining where the government is going to spend money. On wars? On making cronies rucher? On rebuilding a green economy? On increased localization? On taking care of its sick? On taking care of the old?

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

        The entire Fiscal Sustainability Teach-In and Counter Conference

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

          Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
          Kelton does a good job of what I have been trying to teach. However she does not go far enough on the social impacts of high taxation. The logical extension of MMT is that High tax rates will lead to a more income equality, while lower tax rates will lead to a higher Gini coefficient.

          Further, the only issue that remains is determining where the government is going to spend money. On wars? On making cronies rucher? On rebuilding a green economy? On increased localization? On taking care of its sick? On taking care of the old?
          Your criticism of MMT seems out of place to me. I'll explain why. However my readings of MMT have just begun, so most likely it is I who doesn't understand something.

          I have found two parts to MMT:
          1. a description of how a sovereign fiat currency system such as the U.S. Dollar works, and
          2. some policy recommendations for providing full employment, truly universal health care, and free public education for everyone.


          In this iTulip thread so far we have mostly considered just the first part, the descriptive part.

          This first part of MMT, the descriptive part, does not take a moral stance or make policy recommendations. It says in affect: here is what is and how it works, like it or not. Your criticism does not properly apply to this first part anymore than we criticize Newton's calculus for not caring for our sick child.

          The second part of MMT does have policy recommendations, providing for full employment, truly universal health care, and free public education for everyone, with an otherwise fairly limited government. This part we have not talked about much on this thread. These policy recommendations do suggest how we should and should not spend our public money, set our tax levels and other such matters of public policy, all in a quite humane manner, encouraging limited government. So your criticism seems out of place here too as well, both because we have not introduced sufficient context on this thread that the gentle reader might know to what matter you speak, and because from what tiny bit I've seen so far, your criticism seems quite wrong to me.

          If you have the patience to explain the error of my thinking Rajiv, I would appreciate that.
          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

            Thanks for that link. I have much listening to do now.

            When I follow the link last link below for the first session:

            I get to links to other reading material that Bill Mitchell has provided, such as:

            On first glance, I find these three parts claiming (to quote Mitchell from his conclusion in Part 3):
            [concerns of excess] debt, intergenerational tax burdens and other debt-hysteria concepts ... are largely irrelevant concepts and divert our attention from the essential nature of fiscal policy practice which is to pursue public purpose and the first place to start is to achieve and sustain full employment.
            This conclusion appears to me to disagree with your criticism in your previous post.
            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
              Your criticism of MMT seems out of place to me.
              I was not criticizing MMT, but only paraphrasing what was said in the lecture, and extending the logic of the MMT. In my mind, once you accept the tenets of MMT -- and since MMT is descriptive of how money is really created, there is nothing to argue with on that score, the real policy discussions can begin -- which is what Kelton said towards the end of the Q&A on the lecture.

              The stephanie Kelton lecture should be listened to in conjunction with looking at her presentation.

              In my mind, the logic of the MMT leads immediately to the conclusion --

              Higher Top margin Income Tax rates lead to more income equality, while lower Income tax rates lead to more income inequlity. One should still be able to fine tune the money supply needs by moving the income ponts where the tax brackets kick in.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                I was not criticizing MMT, but only paraphrasing what was said in the lecture, and extending the logic of the MMT.
                Saying she does "not go far enough" sounded like criticism to me. And expressing concern for "the social impacts of high taxation" suggested to me that you might think that MMT recommends high taxation, which it does not.

                I can't tell quite what you're thinking yet, because your comments seem to me to leave thoughts unspoken, or at least not yet heard by myself. But your comments seem to map well to the rather frequent and misguided criticism of MMT that it is recommending high taxes, high spending, unbalanced budgets or high national debt.

                MMT does not recommend such per se, nor does it shun such per se. Rather it observes:
                • that there are no particular fiscal or operational impediments to such,
                • that the usual reasons given, such as in the CBO report that opened this thread, for throttling social or economic programs are bogus, and
                • that such understanding opens the way for more affective economic policies and benevolent social policies by those sovereign governments who issue their own floating exchange fiat currency.

                I simply cannot tell yet if your criticisms (as they still seem to me) are based on the usual misinterpretations of MMT, or represent some insight that I'm still not understanding. I have good reasons to suspect both possibilities.

                If you could actually state what you consider MMT to mean, and then state the reasoning behind your "logical extensions" of MMT, then perhaps I could be clearer on the meaning of your remarks.
                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                  Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                  My gut sense is that that "fiscal multiplier" is at best a sometimes interesting correlation, rather than an important causative mechanism.

                  People have not stopped investing in creating or growing businesses (theirs or others) because Treasuries are such a hot deal; rather they stopped investing because we're in the midst of a monster debt collapse and most investments, after discounting their risk, look worse than stuffing Dollars in the mattress.
                  Yes, but the only real job growth at the moment is coming from Uncle Sam. The non-MMT way to look at this is that these are by definition more inefficient jobs and displace efficient private section growth. This displacement and concomitant decreased productivity decreases GDP over time. If the government pays a bunch of people to dig a hole and then to fill it in, it isn't as beneficial to GDP as having the private sector pay those people to develop new technologies. How the MMT crew can feel this will work out well is beyond me at the moment.

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                  • #69
                    Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                    mispost - hence deleting

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                      Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                      I simply cannot tell yet if your criticisms (as they still seem to me) are based on the usual misinterpretations of MMT, or represent some insight that I'm still not understanding. I have good reasons to suspect both possibilities.

                      If you could actually state what you consider MMT to mean, and then state the reasoning behind your "logical extensions" of MMT, then perhaps I could be clearer on the meaning of your remarks.
                      Just to be clear, I am in total agreement with the UMKC (MMT) crowd.

                      When I say that Kelton did not go far enough (in her talk,) I just meant that there are logical implications to MMT that have been left unsaid (in her talk.)

                      MMT to me also logically implies that people should not be afraid of taxation, as taxation is the way to avoid monetary inflation. The policy action as to what, where and how much to tax is a political decision. If we want society to have more income equality (and I believe that it is an Itulip position that income equality is in society's benefit) then a progressive income tax with high marginal tax rates at the top brackets along with high Estate taxes works very well.

                      Once we realize that the money supply is solely determined by government spending, and limiting the money supply is solely determined by taxation then the objection to government spending and taxing should wane, and the real discussions should begin -- as to where government spending should occur -- for that then determines the investments that the society makes - and the places where taxation should occur- for that determines how and where wealth and income accumulates, and how equitable or inequitable a society is.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                        Originally posted by Rajiv View Post
                        Once we realize that the money supply is solely determined by government spending, and limiting the money supply is solely determined by taxation then the objection to government spending and taxing should wane, and the real discussions should begin -- as to where government spending should occur -- for that then determines the investments that the society makes - and the places where taxation should occur- for that determines how and where wealth and income accumulates, and how equitable or inequitable a society is.
                        That makes sense, and I agree. Thanks for taking the time to explain things to this slow witted bovine.
                        Most folks are good; a few aren't.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                          Originally posted by Jay View Post
                          If the government pays a bunch of people to dig a hole and then to fill it in, it isn't as beneficial to GDP as having the private sector pay those people to develop new technologies.
                          True, but it's more beneficial to the economy than broke, long term unemployed moving in with relatives. At least the part of the economy that's still functioning has some customers.

                          My basic take on the guaranteed employment idea is this. We live in an almost entirely monetized economy. You need money for food, clothing and shelter. If we can get some marginally useful work (some of those dug holes might be useful) out of those willing to work but unable to find work, and keep those people within the functioning economy, then that's a good deal. The choice is not between digging and refilling ditches, versus some sort of productive new technology development. The choice is between the digging the silly ditch to earn a minimum wage, versus sitting in front of your brother-in-law's TV eating Dorito's bought on food stamps.

                          I'd go a step further (and stir the pot with more controversy) and recommend eliminating the minimum wage laws. It should not be illegal to work for a small pittance. Perhaps something else is attractive about that job. Perhaps you're just beginning to learn some skill and you're really not worth more, but seek the experience. The guaranteed job would be there at what was formerly known as the minimum wage if you just need that cash flow and can't find a better job (better paying or more satisfying.) Any full-time, basically boring private sector job would still be forced to pay more than that guaranteed job wage, just to compete for labor.

                          If there was substantial local control over which jobs earned the guaranteed job wages, then some of those jobs could actually serve a public use.
                          Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                          • #73
                            Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                            Originally posted by Jay View Post
                            Yes, but the only real job growth at the moment is coming from Uncle Sam.
                            That's certainly true. However better for Uncle Sam to keep the economy at least half-way functioning than to pull the plug and let it collapse.

                            Do you remove ventilation from a patient because they really should be breathing and exercising on their own? I hope not. One step at a time.
                            Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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                            • #74
                              Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                              Thanks for this discussion. Really enlightening stuff.

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              I get to links to other reading material that Bill Mitchell has provided, such as:


                              On first glance, I find these three parts claiming (to quote Mitchell from his conclusion in Part 3):

                              This conclusion appears to me to disagree with your criticism in your previous post.

                              Remember this?

                              Originally posted by ThePythonicCow View Post
                              I tried reading the material at the three links you provided, bpr, but gave up. As far as I can tell, he is arrogantly dismissing by fiat all contrary evidence and then declaring victory by default for his simplified model of the economic world. I sure hope he had nothing of value to say, for if he did, I'm going to miss out on it.
                              http://www.itulip.com/forums/showthr...NTURY?p=154404
                              Last edited by bpr; August 03, 2010, 08:57 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: CBO: Federal Debt and the Risk of a Fiscal Crisis

                                Originally posted by bpr View Post
                                Thanks for this discussion. Really enlightening stuff.
                                Thanks for the kind words.

                                Originally posted by bpr View Post
                                Remember this?
                                That's a hoot! Thanks. I guess it took me a couple of attempts to wrap my head around this MMT stuff.

                                Your link is busted. It's missing the "forums/showthread.php" part of the path.
                                Most folks are good; a few aren't.

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